A thread to discuss weight trainings effect on ergometer performance.
Is there research to support weight training has an effect on erg performance (not OTW rowing)
Weight training can certainly provide over all fitness benefits in general. I'll dig through my archives to find my articles on weight bearing exercise and bone mass. Certainly NASA has plenty of data to show weightlessness causes calcium loss in bone. I'll provide references
Weight training and ergometer performance
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igoeja
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Strength has long been shown to have a strong positive correlation with erg performance, as has power, but I don't know that lifting for such abilities improves performance. Although there are many believers in weight training, and likely some anecdotal support, every study/abstract I've read I've read showed a negative relationship between weight training and erg performance.
A recent study compared lifting to failure and not, and showed doing less correlated with better performance. If it had included a control group and an erg-only group, it is likely the erg-only group would have performed best. Obviously, poorly designed studies only make matters worse, and clouding the issue are the variants of weight training, e.g., frequency, recovery, repetitions, volume, etc.
A recent study compared lifting to failure and not, and showed doing less correlated with better performance. If it had included a control group and an erg-only group, it is likely the erg-only group would have performed best. Obviously, poorly designed studies only make matters worse, and clouding the issue are the variants of weight training, e.g., frequency, recovery, repetitions, volume, etc.
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leadville
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jliddil - thanks for starting this thread. Can you keep it on the straight and narrow? 
most of the research I've been reviewing has rather substantial limitations, as mentioned on the two types thread.
1. small sample size
2. short duration
3. lack of clarity on pre-training fitness level
I've found about half a dozen papers I'm in the process of reviewing, and will report back in a couple of days.
the early results, albeit from reading abstracts and not entire articles, seems to be that there is some evidence of positive correlation between strength training and 2k performance on an erg. However, that's very preliminary, and I reserve the right to deny I ever wrote this after I actually finish reading the studies and do more research.
most of the research I've been reviewing has rather substantial limitations, as mentioned on the two types thread.
1. small sample size
2. short duration
3. lack of clarity on pre-training fitness level
I've found about half a dozen papers I'm in the process of reviewing, and will report back in a couple of days.
the early results, albeit from reading abstracts and not entire articles, seems to be that there is some evidence of positive correlation between strength training and 2k performance on an erg. However, that's very preliminary, and I reserve the right to deny I ever wrote this after I actually finish reading the studies and do more research.
Returned to sculling after an extended absence; National Champion 2010, 2011 D Ltwt 1x, PB 2k 7:04.5 @ 2010 Crash-b
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Carl Watts
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I used to go to the Gym on a regular basis for years and it is great for building mass and I have no doubt it would help on say a 100M sprint on the rower but unless your also doing some intensive cardio work at the Gym as well I don't see it helping overall as the rower requires stamina for say a 30 minute and short weight sets at the Gym just doesn't build this.
Also as I got older what I was trying to acheive changed significantly. No longer was I interested in building mass, in fact quite the opposite I was trying more to keep it in check or better still get lighter.
Instead of paying for 3 more years of Gym membership I bought a rower instead and shifted to cardio based training. Personally I think you can get in excellent all over physical shape with a rower and have great cardio fitness as well.
Did the earlier use of weights help my rowing ? The answer is yes because it changed many things in the way my body developed. Had I just decided to jump off the couch and start rowing the results would have been very different.
Also as I got older what I was trying to acheive changed significantly. No longer was I interested in building mass, in fact quite the opposite I was trying more to keep it in check or better still get lighter.
Instead of paying for 3 more years of Gym membership I bought a rower instead and shifted to cardio based training. Personally I think you can get in excellent all over physical shape with a rower and have great cardio fitness as well.
Did the earlier use of weights help my rowing ? The answer is yes because it changed many things in the way my body developed. Had I just decided to jump off the couch and start rowing the results would have been very different.
Carl Watts.
Age:56 Weight: 108kg Height:183cm
Concept 2 Monitor Service Technician & indoor rower.
http://log.concept2.com/profile/863525/log
Age:56 Weight: 108kg Height:183cm
Concept 2 Monitor Service Technician & indoor rower.
http://log.concept2.com/profile/863525/log
So lets make sure we are clear about what things we are discussing. First we have 2k performance on an erg. As I think we will see most all the research has been using subjects who are skilled. There may be research on novice rowers which would be interesting to review.
What is "training" and the effect of weight training on it. For me "training" is about improving technique which will ultimately improve my time. I am sure that I can improve quite a bit since I can only do about 7:45 for 2k.
Then we have the effect of weight training on general fitness and balance. AS Carl has pointed out many of us are interested in keeping in shape/fit. The rower alone seems to do a very good job of providing strength and cardiovascular fitness.
For me low level weight training is a supplement due to various never problems from poor posture over the course of my life. Has it improved my rowing? Only in the sense that it helps me keep from having numb hands.
It would interesting to also look at bone density studies. I do recall that when I was a regular runner there were studies that showed upper body weight training helped runners maintain more muscle mass after 50 years or so. This is from memory.
What effect does weight training have on fast twitch muscles used in rowing? Again for someone like me is weight training really that beneficial vs concentrating on technique and doing intervals on the erg. Ugh. Me I prefer to just row of an hour.
What is "training" and the effect of weight training on it. For me "training" is about improving technique which will ultimately improve my time. I am sure that I can improve quite a bit since I can only do about 7:45 for 2k.
Then we have the effect of weight training on general fitness and balance. AS Carl has pointed out many of us are interested in keeping in shape/fit. The rower alone seems to do a very good job of providing strength and cardiovascular fitness.
For me low level weight training is a supplement due to various never problems from poor posture over the course of my life. Has it improved my rowing? Only in the sense that it helps me keep from having numb hands.
It would interesting to also look at bone density studies. I do recall that when I was a regular runner there were studies that showed upper body weight training helped runners maintain more muscle mass after 50 years or so. This is from memory.
What effect does weight training have on fast twitch muscles used in rowing? Again for someone like me is weight training really that beneficial vs concentrating on technique and doing intervals on the erg. Ugh. Me I prefer to just row of an hour.
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igoeja
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Curious
Leadville, can you post links to the studies? I'd be curious to read them myself.
I've often been an opponent of stretching, but the fact is that it is a mixed bag, and one recent study did show a positive effect from a sit-and-reach stretching program. I haven't seen any studies with positive effects of strength training, but I'm certainly open to change if it is true.
I've often been an opponent of stretching, but the fact is that it is a mixed bag, and one recent study did show a positive effect from a sit-and-reach stretching program. I haven't seen any studies with positive effects of strength training, but I'm certainly open to change if it is true.
AU: M. Ben
AU: L. A Harvey
TI: Regular stretch does not increase muscle extensibility: a randomized controlled trial
SO: Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports
VL: 20
NO: 1
PG: 136-144
YR: 2010
CP: © 2009 John Wiley & Sons A/S
ON: 1600-0838
PN: 0905-7188
AD: Rehabilitation Studies Unit, Northern Clinical School, Faculty of Medicine, University of Sydney, Sydney, Australia; Physiotherapy Department, Royal Rehabilitation Centre Sydney, Sydney, Australia
DOI: 10.1111/j.1600-0838.2009.00926.x
US: http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1600-0838.2009.00926.x
AB: The purpose of this randomized controlled trial was to determine whether regular stretch increases hamstring muscle extensibility. Sixty healthy individuals were randomly allocated to an experimental or a control group. The experimental group attended supervised stretch sessions where they stretched the hamstring muscles of a randomly allocated leg for 30 min five times a week for 6 weeks. The control group did not attend any stretch sessions during this period. No participants withdrew from the study. A purpose built device was used to measure passive hip flexion during a straight leg-raise manoeuvre with the application of a standardized and non-standardized stretch torque. The stretch intervention did not increase passive hip flexion when measured with a standardized stretch torque [mean treatment effect=22121°; 95% confidence interval (CI)=22123 to 2°]. It did, however, increase passive hip flexion when measured without a standardized stretch torque (mean treatment effect=10°, 95% CI=6201314°). Six weeks of sustained 30-min daily stretch does not increase the extensibility of the hamstring muscle of healthy individuals. It does, however, improve stretch tolerance leading to increased joint range of motion without any actual improvements in muscle extensibility.
AU: L. A Harvey
TI: Regular stretch does not increase muscle extensibility: a randomized controlled trial
SO: Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports
VL: 20
NO: 1
PG: 136-144
YR: 2010
CP: © 2009 John Wiley & Sons A/S
ON: 1600-0838
PN: 0905-7188
AD: Rehabilitation Studies Unit, Northern Clinical School, Faculty of Medicine, University of Sydney, Sydney, Australia; Physiotherapy Department, Royal Rehabilitation Centre Sydney, Sydney, Australia
DOI: 10.1111/j.1600-0838.2009.00926.x
US: http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1600-0838.2009.00926.x
AB: The purpose of this randomized controlled trial was to determine whether regular stretch increases hamstring muscle extensibility. Sixty healthy individuals were randomly allocated to an experimental or a control group. The experimental group attended supervised stretch sessions where they stretched the hamstring muscles of a randomly allocated leg for 30 min five times a week for 6 weeks. The control group did not attend any stretch sessions during this period. No participants withdrew from the study. A purpose built device was used to measure passive hip flexion during a straight leg-raise manoeuvre with the application of a standardized and non-standardized stretch torque. The stretch intervention did not increase passive hip flexion when measured with a standardized stretch torque [mean treatment effect=22121°; 95% confidence interval (CI)=22123 to 2°]. It did, however, increase passive hip flexion when measured without a standardized stretch torque (mean treatment effect=10°, 95% CI=6201314°). Six weeks of sustained 30-min daily stretch does not increase the extensibility of the hamstring muscle of healthy individuals. It does, however, improve stretch tolerance leading to increased joint range of motion without any actual improvements in muscle extensibility.
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leadville
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jliddil
if what you are seeking is general fitness and cardio improvement than rowing without weight lifting is likely far more beneficial than a combination of the two. the time spent lifting would be more productively spent rowing, as it will improve muscular strength as well as cardiovascular fitness.
re bone density, there are some studies that indicate weight training does enhance bone density. I doubt erging would as it is not a weight bearing exercise. walking and running are much more beneficial for those looking to build bone.
top cyclists tend to have low bone density due to the lack of weight bearing exercise; altho they have terrific cardio fitness, their bones are like 75 year old women ( I exaggerate a bit, but you get the point).
The studies I'm looking into are more focused on elite level athletes. My sense is this isn't what you're looking for. Correct?
re weight training, most of the muscles you are using on the erg are slow twitch unless you are rowing high and hard. FT fibers aren't recruited for most long and slow work. weight training has a more pronounced effect on FT fibers than ST.
if what you are seeking is general fitness and cardio improvement than rowing without weight lifting is likely far more beneficial than a combination of the two. the time spent lifting would be more productively spent rowing, as it will improve muscular strength as well as cardiovascular fitness.
re bone density, there are some studies that indicate weight training does enhance bone density. I doubt erging would as it is not a weight bearing exercise. walking and running are much more beneficial for those looking to build bone.
top cyclists tend to have low bone density due to the lack of weight bearing exercise; altho they have terrific cardio fitness, their bones are like 75 year old women ( I exaggerate a bit, but you get the point).
The studies I'm looking into are more focused on elite level athletes. My sense is this isn't what you're looking for. Correct?
re weight training, most of the muscles you are using on the erg are slow twitch unless you are rowing high and hard. FT fibers aren't recruited for most long and slow work. weight training has a more pronounced effect on FT fibers than ST.
Returned to sculling after an extended absence; National Champion 2010, 2011 D Ltwt 1x, PB 2k 7:04.5 @ 2010 Crash-b
Right it does appear cyclist have low bone density vs controls mainly in the spine. (pubmed)
Rowing per se is not weight bearing but you are putting stress on leg and arm bones. So in theory this should help.
some NASA stuff:
http://spaceresearch.nasa.gov/research_ ... haken.html
Rowing per se is not weight bearing but you are putting stress on leg and arm bones. So in theory this should help.
some NASA stuff:
http://spaceresearch.nasa.gov/research_ ... haken.html
Sure I'm seeking fitness but I'm still a driven kind of person so I compete with myself.leadville wrote:jliddil
if what you are seeking is general fitness and cardio improvement than rowing without weight lifting is likely far more beneficial than a combination of the two. the time spent lifting would be more productively spent rowing, as it will improve muscular strength as well as cardiovascular fitness.
The studies I'm looking into are more focused on elite level athletes. My sense is this isn't what you're looking for. Correct?
re weight training, most of the muscles you are using on the erg are slow twitch unless you are rowing high and hard. FT fibers aren't recruited for most long and slow work. weight training has a more pronounced effect on FT fibers than ST.
Also I ran for years but never really accepted my genetic limitations. Nothing is ever good enough. My "lifting" is with hand weights and follows the exercises prescribed by my physical therapists.And elite athlete stuff has some general applicability to us normal folks. There are some take home messages. My background is in chemistry and toxicology and I've always followed exercise phys publications.
JD
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Byron Drachman
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I don't remember where I read this, but one explanation of why the Tour de France riders lose bone density is supposed to be that they spend so much time at it and can't replace the calcium lost. The idea was it was not the cycling itself, rather the extreme amount of time sweating.
Here is a link to an article on osteoporosis at the UK web site that suggests weight bearing exercise might not be necessary:
http://concept2.co.uk/assets/docs/indoo ... orosis.pdf
One of the Washington Post's contests used to be that you change or add one letter to a word to form a new word. I remember this one:
osteopornosis--a degenerate disease
Here is a link to an article on osteoporosis at the UK web site that suggests weight bearing exercise might not be necessary:
http://concept2.co.uk/assets/docs/indoo ... orosis.pdf
One of the Washington Post's contests used to be that you change or add one letter to a word to form a new word. I remember this one:
osteopornosis--a degenerate disease
Why are heavyweights inherently faster than lightweights on the erg? More muscle mass. Clearly at the shorter distances (I extrapolated on another thread that as the distance approaches or passes marathon distance, the difference in times will approach zero), muscle mass has a serious effect.
The question isn't "should I lift?" it's, "what kind of lifting should I do?" and in the case of lightweights, low rep high weight work is best. And the other question is "should I lift enough to put on muscle mass", to which the answer is simply how much fat you can burn off. Just a visual comparison between the winner of the 30-39 lwts at Crash-B's to the second place (Ebbesen to Ording) shows a large discrepancy in muscle mass. Ording is almost scrawny, while Ebbesen clearly approaches the 165lb cutoff.
In my own experience, even over the 5k distance, adding in jumpies and squats seriously helped. 6x40 jumpies and 6x30 squats @ 75lbs.
Also, I'm the third person from Connecticut to post here. Scary.
The question isn't "should I lift?" it's, "what kind of lifting should I do?" and in the case of lightweights, low rep high weight work is best. And the other question is "should I lift enough to put on muscle mass", to which the answer is simply how much fat you can burn off. Just a visual comparison between the winner of the 30-39 lwts at Crash-B's to the second place (Ebbesen to Ording) shows a large discrepancy in muscle mass. Ording is almost scrawny, while Ebbesen clearly approaches the 165lb cutoff.
In my own experience, even over the 5k distance, adding in jumpies and squats seriously helped. 6x40 jumpies and 6x30 squats @ 75lbs.
Also, I'm the third person from Connecticut to post here. Scary.
24, 166lbs, 5'9
I'll need to review my physiology/pharmacology but I don't think you seat out calcium. Only sodium and pottasium.Byron Drachman wrote: The idea was it was not the cycling itself, rather the extreme amount of time sweating.
J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2009 Mar;49(1):44-53.
Low bone mineral density and calcium intake in elite cyclists.
Medelli J, Shabani M, Lounana J, Fardellone P, Campion F.
Department of Exercise Biology and Sports Medicine, University North Hospital, Amiens Cedex 1, France. medelli. jean@chu-amiens.fr
AIM: High physical activity is associated with larger bone mineral content (BMC) and density (BMD) in young males though competitive road cyclists have been reported to have similar or lower BMD than controls. METHODS: BMC and BMD were assessed in 73 highly trained (42 professional and 31 elite amateur) road cyclists (CYCLIST; age: 25.8+/-4.3 years; height: 179.7+/-6.3 cm; weight: 71.6+/-6.3 kg; %Fat mass: 9.5+/-3 %; VO(2max): 68.5+/-5.7 mlxkg(-1)xmin(-1)) and in 30 healthy males used as reference (REF: 28.3+/-4.5 years; 176.6+/-6.2 cm; 74.5+/-8.4 kg; 21.3+/-6.1%). RESULTS: Daily calcium intake estimated from a food-questionnaire was higher in CYCLIST than in REF (942+/-374 vs 753+/-315 mgxd(-1); P=0.008). Compared to REF, CYCLIST had lower L1-L4 BMD (1.004+/-0.125 vs 1.240+/-0.163 gxcm(-2); P<0.0001) and femoral neck BMD (0.986+/-0.132 vs 1.098+/-0.137; P<0.003). In CYCLIST, daily calcium intake is correlated with total BMC and BMD (r=0.27-0.26, P=0.02) and femoral BMD (r=0.35; P=0.002). Divided by tertiles (high, medium and low Ca), CYCLIST with high Ca (1320+/-382 mgxd(-1)) had lower lumbar BMD values (-6.68%; P=0.02) and tended to have lower femoral neck BMD (-4.77%; P=0.09) and radius UD BMD (-5.9%; P=0.07) than REF. CONCLUSIONS: There was no difference between medium Ca and high Ca for any BMC or BMD parameters. Differences between low Ca and high Ca could be detected only for Total BMC (-8.4%; P=0.01), Pelvis BMD (-7.4%; P=0.01) and femoral neck BMD (-9.9%; P=0.006).
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igoeja
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Testosterone and BMD in elite male lightweight rowers.
Testosterone and BMD in elite male lightweight rowers.:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1840 ... dinalpos=2
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1840 ... dinalpos=2
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NavigationHazard
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You can sweat out quite a bit of calcium. The seminal study is Klesges et al (1996), Changes in bone mineral content in male athletes. Mechanisms of action and intervention effects, JAMA. 1996 Jul 17;276(3):226-30:
OBJECTIVES: To determine changes in bone mineral content (BMC) in male athletes, to examine the mechanisms of changes, and to evaluate the effects of intervention. DESIGN: Dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry (DEXA) tests were administered over a 2-year period, and calcium loss during training was determined by analysis of sweat and urine. Calcium supplementation was administered during year 2. SETTING--A midsouth university. PARTICIPANTS: Eleven members of a college Division I-A basketball team. INTERVENTION: Based on observed calcium loss, athletes received differential levels of calcium supplementation. Intervention commenced the week prior to the fall training season and continued through postseason play. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE--Changes in BMC. RESULTS: Total body BMC decreased 3.8% from preseason to midseason of year 1 (mean decrease, 133.4 g, P = .02), increased nonsignificantly by 1.1% (mean increase, 35.3 g, P = .22) during the offseason, but decreased an additional 3.3% during summer months when practices resumed (mean decrease, 113.1 g, P = .01). Dermal calcium loss averaged 247 mg [corrected] per training session. From preseason to late summer, there was an overall decrease of 6.1% in total BMC and a 10.5% decrease in BMC of the legs. Calcium supplementation was associated with significant increases in BMC and lean body mass. CONCLUSIONS: Bone loss is calcium related and exercise is positively related to BMC provided that calcium intake is sufficient to offset dermal loss.
The essential finding of dermal loss has been confirmed by other studies, e.g. Martin et el., Exercise and Calcium Supplementation: Effects on Calcium Homeostasis in Sportswomen, Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise: September 2007 - Volume 39 - Issue 9 - pp 1481-1486.
The good news is that calcium supplementation seems to be able to make good the loss via sweat.
OBJECTIVES: To determine changes in bone mineral content (BMC) in male athletes, to examine the mechanisms of changes, and to evaluate the effects of intervention. DESIGN: Dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry (DEXA) tests were administered over a 2-year period, and calcium loss during training was determined by analysis of sweat and urine. Calcium supplementation was administered during year 2. SETTING--A midsouth university. PARTICIPANTS: Eleven members of a college Division I-A basketball team. INTERVENTION: Based on observed calcium loss, athletes received differential levels of calcium supplementation. Intervention commenced the week prior to the fall training season and continued through postseason play. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE--Changes in BMC. RESULTS: Total body BMC decreased 3.8% from preseason to midseason of year 1 (mean decrease, 133.4 g, P = .02), increased nonsignificantly by 1.1% (mean increase, 35.3 g, P = .22) during the offseason, but decreased an additional 3.3% during summer months when practices resumed (mean decrease, 113.1 g, P = .01). Dermal calcium loss averaged 247 mg [corrected] per training session. From preseason to late summer, there was an overall decrease of 6.1% in total BMC and a 10.5% decrease in BMC of the legs. Calcium supplementation was associated with significant increases in BMC and lean body mass. CONCLUSIONS: Bone loss is calcium related and exercise is positively related to BMC provided that calcium intake is sufficient to offset dermal loss.
The essential finding of dermal loss has been confirmed by other studies, e.g. Martin et el., Exercise and Calcium Supplementation: Effects on Calcium Homeostasis in Sportswomen, Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise: September 2007 - Volume 39 - Issue 9 - pp 1481-1486.
The good news is that calcium supplementation seems to be able to make good the loss via sweat.
67 MH 6' 6"