(Relatively) New to Rowing

[Wilbz]

Hi all, I just started erging this summer as a result of a larger strategy to lose some weight and improve my overall fitness. Since starting running and rowing on an alternating basis I'm down ~30lbs and finding myself very much enjoying the activity.

Unfortunately / fortunately, the C2 machine is located in our company "Education and Wellness Center", which means I can work row at lunch, but also means there was 0 training as to appropriate form / settings. I watched the basic video on the C2 website for overall form, but ended up at a damper setting / pacing that was comfortable for me.

End result is that I find my settings appear well outside of what is considered the standard targets I see around here. I ended up at a damper setting of ~9, and a drag factor of ~200. I've never had much for upper body strength, always having been a distance runner (many) years ago, and for some reason this condition felt perfect for me.

Pacing wise I find myself at around 24 spm for the longer distance rows (5k and greater) and 28~30spm for the shorter distances (2k). I find I have a much better performance for the longer distances than for the sprints, and my percentiles for my times reflect that.

Form wise I find I have three major issues I'm trying to correct:

1. Chicken wings where my elbows go out and horizontal rather than down against my sides
2. Crouching too far on the catch where my shins go well past perpendicular and
3. My knees splaying out to the sides when I get tired and stop controlling my form.

Below is an example of my standard row (most recent 30min PR). Note that during this row I was primarily focusing on trying to optimize my form throughout the row, so my times didn't show the consistent negative splits I usually try to keep.

Code: Select all

Split	Time	Meters	Pace	DPS	Watts	Cals	SPM
1	01:30.0	389	01:55.7	10.4	226.1	27	25
2	01:30.0	386	01:56.6	10.7	220.9	27	24
3	01:30.0	394	01:54.2	10.5	234.9	28	25
4	01:30.0	387	01:56.3	11.2	222.6	27	23
5	01:30.0	389	01:55.7	11.3	226.1	27	23
6	01:30.0	393	01:54.5	10.1	233.1	28	26
7	01:30.0	392	01:54.8	10.5	231.4	27	25
8	01:30.0	397	01:53.4	11	240.3	28	24
9	01:30.0	395	01:53.9	10.5	236.7	28	25
10	01:30.0	391	01:55.1	10.9	229.6	27	24
11	01:30.0	394	01:54.2	10.9	234.9	28	24
12	01:30.0	390	01:55.4	10.4	227.8	27	25
13	01:30.0	390	01:55.4	10.8	227.8	27	24
14	01:30.0	389	01:55.7	11.3	226.1	27	23
15	01:30.0	385	01:56.9	10.3	219.2	26	25
16	01:30.0	383	01:57.5	9.8	215.8	26	26
17	01:30.0	387	01:56.3	10.3	222.6	27	25
18	01:30.0	386	01:56.6	10.3	220.9	27	25
19	01:30.0	385	01:56.9	9.5	219.2	26	27
20	01:30.0	409	01:50.0	9.7	262.8	30	28
Totals	30:00.0	7,812	01:55.2		228.9	544	25

So the primary question I have; do I need to go back and entirely revamp my rowing style?

I've seen many negative comments about "crossfit meat-heads going all out with the damper at 10", so the automatic assumption for me is that I'm doing something grossly incorrect. Yet, at the same time I find myself constantly improving from row to row (almost each row is a PR), with long distance times in the 70~80th percentile for my age / weight. It doesn't inherently feel like I'm doing something wrong.

I'm kind of listing around at this point with no specific race I'm targeting. I'd like to see a sub 7 2k (already almost there) and a +8000 30min, but I feel like I'll reach those shortly with how I'm already rowing. My largest weakness right now is the sprints, which is really where I see I have the biggest potential for improvement.

[hjs]

Using a high drag in itself does not make your stroke wrong in itself. But it means you use a slow drive, and you proberly use a stroke to protect your back against the high drag. Learning to use a lower drag it not difficult btw.

[Carl Watts]

I see the usual beginner problems the same as I had.

Drag too high and rating too high for the pace. Work on dropping the rating and dropping the drag for longer rows. This will increase the loading on the legs and should still "feel good". Your DPS is into double figures which is good but you can eventually get into the 12's and 13's while still maintaining the same pace.

No idea as to the intensity of the row you obtained the figures above, heartrate is very useful to have later on if you keep up the rowing, even on a watch if you have no other option. I presume it was maximal as it was a PB but its useful to know what your max hr is for training purposes.

Some longer training rows should improve your 2K which is very good but the longer endurance rows need work looking at the times.

[jackarabit]

Legs discover their abilities. Backs, knees, elbows and hands reveal their vulnerabilities. Go forward, pay attention. Allow your technique to evolve. You will get comfortable with lower df in time. Very strong and evenly-paced 30' says you're not a meathead.

[Wilbz]

I see the usual beginner problems the same as I had.

Always good to know I'm not the only one.

Drag too high and rating too high for the pace. Work on dropping the rating and dropping the drag for longer rows. This will increase the loading on the legs and should still "feel good". Your DPS is into double figures which is good but you can eventually get into the 12's and 13's while still maintaining the same pace.

When testing out a lower drag factor (really just damper setting), I found my rate increasing to maintain the same splits / pacing and I started to struggle with breathing / effort, but this was early on in my rowing experience. I think I'm going to have to gradually change both to maintain a proper comfort level, but with a better fitness level and form now I think it's a reasonable change to make.

No idea as to the intensity of the row you obtained the figures above, heartrate is very useful to have later on if you keep up the rowing, even on a watch if you have no other option. I presume it was maximal as it was a PB but its useful to know what your max hr is for training purposes.

I have a fitbit HR, but it's useful only for after the row is completed, not for viewing actual live results (it can also be unreliable if it starts to slip positions on the wrist). It tracked the 30 min HR at around 120~130 for the bulk of the row, with a spike up to 150 at the sprint to the end. I don't have any confidence in those measurements however, considering how the values jumped around.

Any recommendations for a belt type HR monitor that's relatively inexpensive?

Thanks overall for the feedback!

[Bob S.]

An excellent 30' piece! It shows a lot of promise.

I think that it would be worth your while to give low rate and low drag a shot. It will seem awkward at first, so you have to do it a number of times to get the feel of it. Mainly it is a matter of getting in that explosive drive of the legs at the catch. I started with a Model B in the mid 1990's and knew nothing about drag factor. The old PM1 did not even show it. I just put the damper in the middle and let it go at that. Later I learned that the open cage B had a drag factor range of 140 and up and that my usual setting would give a DF of around 165. My first experience with lower drag factors was at a race in which the then new Model Cs were used. It was quite a shock - the stroke seemed to easy. I caught on to it however and did OK in the race. Years later, I got a PM3 on the old model B and learned for the first time about DF.

With regard to rate, in the piece you recorded, with a rate averaging 25 spm and an average power of 228.9 watts, your work per stroke averaged 9.16 watt-minutes per stroke. To keep the same work per stroke at a training rate of 20 spm, you would need an average power of 183 watts, a pace of about 2:04. I have a hunch that, with a lower DF (range of 110-140) and an explosive drive with the legs, you could develop a more powerful stroke, like 10-11 watt-minutes per stroke. That would get you up to well over 200 watts and keep the pace below 2:00.

If you do try lower rates, like 20spm, be sure to keep the recoveries slow, easy, and relaxed. Sneak up on that catch and then drive hard with the legs.

Bob S.

[Eric308]

As noted above, you are doing great for just starting a few months ago. Pay heed to the previous posts about damper setting and drag factors. Also, is there any way to check the interior (fan blade area) of your rower? They need to be clean or otherwise everything is all distorted. Great 30' piece. I've never been close to a 7:01 2K (7:37), but I've got 32 years on you. Keep up the good work and check out the below link.
http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/t ... etting-101

[Galeere]

I started with higher DFs as well; main thing when lowering the DF is that an explosive leg effort is needed. Following vid might get you an idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiQ0Mqlk_Lo
Of course it takes a while to get used to it. But after a while that happened for me and I am fine with DFs between 120 and 130 even for shorter pieces (only for sprints up to 500m I go higher).

[left coaster]

I eventually adapted in a similar manner, for my mid and longer work I'm now using a df of around 122. On the shorter HIIT pieces I've been moving it from 4.5 - 7, not sure what the drag factor is on 7 but I"m faster on the sprints there.

I'm in no way a rower, but after a couple hundred k on the erg I started to realize that the speed I generate is as important as the brute force. I'm able to go longer without burning out my upper body with the lower df as well. Perhaps as the previous poster indicated, I've moved some of the explosive power down into my legs with the lower df. I try to move faster rather than stronger, if that makes any sense. When doing this it feels like I might be able to go even lower, but much lower than 120 and my cardio can't keep up with the movement velocity. Perhaps with more time...

fantastic times by the way, clearly you're doing more right than wrong.

[mspina]

Any recommendations for a belt type HR monitor that's relatively inexpensive?

Thanks overall for the feedback!

I use the ErgData app on my android phone (set on top of the PM3 using the little mount C2 sells) which displays a bit more info, including HR - I just got the Wahoo TICKR HR monitor which has a bluetooth connection. Works beautifully with the ErgData app and was $60 on Amazon. I really like this set-up. The ErgData app will also upload your workouts directly to your online C2 logbook, if you have that set up.

[Carl Watts]

120-130 hr sounds pretty low, I would love to be down there at that pace.

The PM3 requires a Polar heart rate receiver under the slide but if you have a PM4 or a PM5 then something like the Garmin ANT+ hard strap version I started using recently is excellent. I also have the soft strap version, however it doesn't seem as good with the connectivity and is more subject to the amount of moisture on the strap. Both have a user replaceable battery.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/shop-by ... 10996.html

[jackarabit]

Garmin HRM-1G ANT+ for PM4 or 5 are very inexpensive on eBay. I gave 12$, free shipping for mine. Doesn't drop out; doesn't require standing in the shower to get conductivity, allows IDing and selecting your particular belt from other similar in the vicinity (good at public gym). i regret all the bucks and aggro getting the old Polar analog belts to work with the PM3!

[Wilbz]

I started with higher DFs as well; main thing when lowering the DF is that an explosive leg effort is needed. Following vid might get you an idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiQ0Mqlk_Lo
Of course it takes a while to get used to it. But after a while that happened for me and I am fine with DFs between 120 and 130 even for shorter pieces (only for sprints up to 500m I go higher).

Thanks for this, the link was incredibly insightful. I'd always watched the force curves and looked for a nice smooth curve with no mountains. I'd never really focused on where exactly the peak was falling, or what the shape really meant as to how I'm applying the force.

I've started experimenting with this a little bit, and I'm realizing I have a long way to go on my legs. Being a distance runner (not recently, but historically), I never thought my legs would be my biggest area of weakness. Having done a little bit of experimenting afterwards, I've realized I've been doing the bulk of my work with my arms, something I wouldn't have thought possible.

My next skunk-works project will be to export those curves over the length of a workout (assuming I can get a software capable of doing just that). I have a lot of experience with visual analytics and it would be interesting to see what kind of data I can find. If I get anything that's visually interesting, I'll be sure to share.

[Wilbz]

I use the ErgData app on my android phone (set on top of the PM3 using the little mount C2 sells) which displays a bit more info, including HR - I just got the Wahoo TICKR HR monitor which has a bluetooth connection. Works beautifully with the ErgData app and was $60 on Amazon. I really like this set-up. The ErgData app will also upload your workouts directly to your online C2 logbook, if you have that set up.

I currently use the ErgData app on my iPhone while at the work gym, we have a PM5 there, so it's great to use. I actually just set it between the foot-rests as we don't have the mount for it. At home I was lucky enough to have a friend who had a un-used Concept2 Dynamic, so he's loaned it to me until / if he gets his back straightened out. Unfortunately that's on a PM3, so I've been using the demo version of RowPro to see if I want to spend the money for the full version.

I assume the HR data goes directly to the ErgData app and not through the PM since it's a PM3? Do you have a cable connection from the PM3 to your android phone?

It's interesting using both pieces of equipment. I definitely prefer the model D over the dynamic if I'm shooting for any kinds of times, but the training on the Dynamic definitely helps me see some of my weaknesses in form.

[Bob S.]

It's interesting using both pieces of equipment. I definitely prefer the model D over the dynamic if I'm shooting for any kinds of times, but the training on the Dynamic definitely helps me see some of my weaknesses in form.

I have had my dynamic for about 4 years now and that has been my experience as well, that my times are better on a grounded D and, of course, I have had to use a grounded D to qualify for records. To me, this is counterintuitive. There is considerable more unmeasured work done on the D, since there is very little movement of my body on the dynamic, so I would expect to have faster times on the dynamic. The one clear advantage of the dynamic is the ease of using high rates. I quit using the straps after just a few months on the dynamic and have taken the rate on up as high as 60 spm just fooling around. I like its small footprint and that is the main reason I got it. But my real preference, if I had the space, is the model D on slides. It is easier on the back, like the dynamic, and it can be taken off the slides to use for legal ranked pieces.

Bob S.