Concept2 Forum

I use the crossfitendurance.com (work/family safe) workouts on the C2 because they do a nice job of programming non-predictable but worthwhile workouts.

But here are two I have questions about:

Choose ONE of The Following Sports:
Swim, Bike, Run, C2
Maximal Effort Required.
Swim: 500m, add aT-shirt, parachute or Boots & Utes for drag
Bike: 2 mile Hill climb, Remain in the Saddle, push as big of a gear as possible, Cadence to not drop below 60 RPM Incline between 6-12%
Run: 1 mile Hill climb, Incline between 6-12%, Add 10-20lb weighted Vest.
C2: 1500m, Damper setting between 8-10

Use a Weighted Vest Or Ruck.
Swim: 10lbs vest or weight, 3x(50m/y + 100m/y + 200m/y)
Bike: 30lbs vest 3x( 1/2mile + 1 mile+ 2 mile)
Run: 20lbs vest 3x( 200m + 400m+ 600m)
C2: 20lbs vest 3x( 250m +500m+ 700m)
Rest the exact time it takes you to do each interval in each set. EX. 200m run in 35 sec. rest 35 sec then 400m run, rest 400m time, run 600m, rest 600m time, run 200m, etc.

I've provided the swim/bike/run workouts so you can see a bit of the context and what they're trying to accomplish.

So my questions is whether it makes sense to either: (a) crank up the damper setting to 11; or (b) add an external load such as a weight vest to C2 workouts.

If it ever makes sense to add additional load in one of those ways, what are some ways you might do so?

I thought of using heavy bands attached on one end to a clip near the handle-holder and on the other end to a belt like a weight-lifting belt. This would add accomodative resistance to the leg-drive and might help you strengthen/speed up your leg drive.

But it's kind of convoluted and the band might be too close to delicate structures that need not get caught up. And it might be a waste of time and effort. And it might lead to injury.

Crossfit workouts are designed to be ever-changing and unpredictable, as you said. Whether or not this is useful is up for debate and depends, if you ask me, on how you incorporate the workouts in your training.

Having said that, if you subscribe to the basic principles of CF training, changing the damper setting or wearing a weighted vest are just two more ways of "changing things up". It will definitely change the feeling of the workout and if variety is what you're looking for, why not give it a go?

I remember doing pieces at a high damper setting in my rowing days, so why not.

Your band idea is interesting and similar to a setup that powerlifters use sometimes as part of their training, but, leaving aside the question of implementation, I think it might mess with your rowing mechanics more than a weighted vest would.

Thanks for the input, macroth.

I think Crossfit has some good things, some bad. I like the thinking approach they take to fitness, but I am not a crossfitter. I do like the crossfit endurance workouts as they keep me from having to come up with interval/repeat workouts and there's some good variety.

I am a competitive powerlifter, which is where the bands idea came from. I was sitting in my workout room on the C2, and saw the bands and thought if they could be incorporated.

The reasons I thought the bands might be better was (a) by running it from the frame to a belt (or maybe to the seat itself), you're not changing the upper-body dynamic or the timing the way the weight vest would, and (b) it puts all the additional resistance on the leg drive.

The problem I'm trying to address is that I have slow times despite a good level of fitness and great leg strength. I squat 480# without supportive gear, but that doesn't necessarily translate into quick acceleration on the C2.

My thinking is that by improving the acceleration of the leg drive, that should push my times down, and bands are one way to work on improving acceleration.

I am having trouble following this. Surely adding resistance to the leg drive would increase the force required to achieve a given speed of leg drive. This would increase the recruitment of muscle fibres at a given pace, but the drive would accelerate no quicker. In addition, if you were trying to optimise your split, this could more easily be achieved by greater use of the upper body and so might favour non-optimum rowing technique.

To increase the acceleration of the leg drive, surely the answer is to reduce the drag and thereby require a faster handle speed to produce the same split.

- Iain

Not to dredge up many past threads, but another alternative is to elevate the back of the erg a bit. I used to keep a couple short lengths of 2x6 around if I was feeling like working things a bit harder without increasing the drag factor. Be sure to control the recovery speed.

Hi Todd,

I'm not a Crossfitter either, but I do a lot of their workouts on my own. If your primary goal is to improve your erg times I would bet added resistance isn't the place to look, but rather improved technique. Most people, myself included, have terrible technique when they start erging. It's clearly not a natural movement for many people. Without good technique you can't use all of the physical tools you have at your disposal already. If you have the ability, videotape yourself from the side and post it here. The experts will give you incredible advice on how to improve. When I started erging I was in great shape and very strong as well...after my videotape coaching my times plummeted.

Good luck!!

ToddMR wrote: So my questions is whether it makes sense to either: (a) crank up the damper setting to 11; or (b) add an external load such as a weight vest to C2 workouts.

If it ever makes sense to add additional load in one of those ways, what are some ways you might do so?

1. Is the machine clean? Dirty ergs have lower drag than factory fresh clean ones.
2. If you want stupidly dangerous high drag take the fan cage off and row with it open with no damping. But you will hurt yourself and I will tell you "Told you so."

1. Is the machine clean?

It's reasonably clean. Having bought it used from a University gym, I cleaned it pretty thoroughly when I got it and clean it about once a year. In my hands, it doesn't get too dirty over the course of a year.

2. If you want stupidly dangerous high drag take the fan cage off and row with it open with no damping. But you will hurt yourself and I will tell you "Told you so."

Yeah, that's why I'm asking. I've read something to the effect that "nothing good happens above drag =8 or so" and don't want to do something known to be ill-advised.

ToddMR wrote:In my hands, it doesn't get too dirty over the course of a year.

Just in case this isn't clear, clean means no dust in the flywheel and air vents. It can look clean but if there is dust clogging the tiny perferations in the stainless steel grid then the drag factor will be low.

Also, adding weight to your body will have little to no effect on the erg since it's a non weightbearing activity for the most part. IMO the C2 has more resistance than anyone can ever use. Just try and go faster and faster. Tabatas on the erg are brutal, now row like that for a full 500m straight. You can't do it. So plenty of ''resisrance'' even at low drag factors.

Pays to look at you actual "Drag Factor" on the PM rather than the damper setting. The damper setting is not telling you anything, it is adjusted to get the required Drag Factor. Dust or fitting a C-Breeze dramatically affects the setting. If everything is clean I cannot imagine why anyone in the world would want to row with a higher setting than a 10.

kini62 wrote:adding weight to your body will have little to no effect on the erg since it's a non weightbearing activity for the most part.

I get that, which is why I think the weight vest makes little sense.

If everything is clean I cannot imagine why anyone in the world would want to row with a higher setting than a 10.

My damper goes to 11.

To quote a highly respected rowing coach, cannot remember his name, "To get fast, go fast". Why add external weights? If you want to free weight train then free weight train. Why row at those high dampier settings? I might be mistaken about this, but I don't think any of the world class rowers row at those high levels. A specific workout at a high level is acceptable as part of your overall training program but not as a daily routine.

Just my 2 cents & I am no where close to being in the world class section!

NELSON wrote:To quote a highly respected rowing coach, cannot remember his name, "To get fast, go fast". Why add external weights? If you want to free weight train then free weight train. Why row at those high dampier settings? I might be mistaken about this, but I don't think any of the world class rowers row at those high levels. A specific workout at a high level is acceptable as part of your overall training program but not as a daily routine.

Just my 2 cents & I am no where close to being in the world class section!

In Concept 2's Rugby Training Guide, in pertinent part, it states: "Increasing the drag on the Concept2 rower will provide a higher resistance. Combining this with a low stroke rate and maximal efforts on each pull will improve strength and power in muscles that are an essential part of being a better rugby player."

Extrapolating from this, using an erg for cross-training, suggests that there is a place for increasing setting to the 8-10 as suggested in the initial post as part of the Cross-Fit program. I suppose the point is that if one is not using the erg to train for crew, that is, using a lower setting, as professional rowers do, then a higher setting and concomitant drag factor has its place.

The Training Guide also states in pertinent part: "A well trained rugby player may not receive any direct benefits from including aerobic based rowing but may obtain indirect benefits over time from assisting with the optimization of body weight and body fat, thermo-regulatory adaptation, physiological and psychological recover, needed variety, and the prevention of injuries, burn-out and over-training."

Consequently, if one's primary sport is weight-lifting or weight-training, then one may use the erg differently from someone whose primary sport is crew or cycling. Everyone doesn't need to use a 3 or a 10 setting -- they should tailor the use of the erg for their particular needs.

I think.

ToddMR wrote:So my question is whether it makes sense to either: (a) crank up the damper setting to 11; or (b) add an external load such as a weight vest to C2 workouts.

If it ever makes sense to add additional load in one of those ways, what are some ways you might do so?

Here's how to get a drag factor of 360.

http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?p= ... 360#104665