What Training Have You Done Today?

[deadlifting265]

24/7/24(Weds)

8x1250m(3)

10km-35.07-1.45.3-R23-299w

Hard work but fairly controlled, although legs a touch tired from Mon's 3x5km.......

[MPx]

Yes, we often have dealt with same struggles - what is worrisome is I seem to have these issues more frequently as I keep getting older. My body seems to fight me more and my patience is lower which makes my mental game weaker.

There's no way of knowing if this is the thin end of the wedge and it will keep getting worse, or it's just another obstacle for you to overcome. Admittely, a bigger obstacle and a lot more problematic than before, manageable nevertheless.

Maybe doing what Rocky has done, and start looking at your best efforts as an age group rather than overall will be helpful? I'm reluctant to accept that I won't achieve the results I could do only a few years ago, but I maybe do need to do exactly that. Easing the pressure can be a potent force if it's channeled in the right direction.

Having read that after 40yo we start to decline, as a general rule, it's maybe relevant that there's a best before date on all of us, but it's an arbitrary process that doesn't neatly fit into a box of where we want it to be as the mind and the body are opposing forces.

If it is just your mental fortitude that is the issue, then we both know that can be worked on and needs constant reassurance and development. Confidence is a febrile matter but we both know you can master it like you've done before. If that is now at a slightly lower level remains to be seen, but it's within your reach, admittedly maybe now with a slightly higher price to pay to achieve it.

Interesting discussion to listen in to. The mental game is a huge element of it - and you're both much better than me on that. But don't discount the training level too. Although I've been doing this a long time, in my 40s my training wasn't that smart and also only about 100k/month - so despite being much stronger back then I actually set most of my PBs in my 50s when I started training smarter. Since returning in 2016 after a 3+year break I've been doing around 200k/mth. So despite being clearly weaker than my younger self I've still set a couple of PBs at the event extremes when in my 60s (that I tested much less when younger!). But I'm nowhere near now on the main events 2k 5k etc. Also I've noticed a marked decline since I was 65. But is that real or just mental weakness. Always hard to judge.

By contrast Nick has always trained smart and set some standout scores when younger. Inevitably he can't maintain that absolute level as he ages, tho setting the top ranking scores at will must be some consolation!!

I think you're training background is similar to mine Stu in that you didn't do it particularly well for a few years and have got much better at it in more recent years leading to many PBs despite a bit of aging. Keith harder to judge as clearly exceptionally strong and fit - before really getting into the erg so erg fitness came quickly with many exceptional scores set. But you've both been at the top of your erg game for a few years now. WIth that kind of milage under your belts IMO its less likely that there's much room for ongoing lifetime PBs unless you change something in your training regimes to generate it. But no reason to see a decline just yet - I reckon you guys should be able to maintain close to your best to 60 at least.

[MPx]

Can you divulge the name of the new addition to the team?

Luke Dovre.

Always makes me smile. I'm in awe of the scores set by someone like Justin...but then someone else always comes along and moves things along again.

[deadlifting265]

Can you divulge the name of the new addition to the team?

Luke Dovre.

Always makes me smile. I'm in awe of the scores set by someone like Justin...but then someone else always comes along and moves things along again.

Thanks, found his instagram!

[dabatey]

C2 Training Guide V2 Original Plan Preparation Phase Hard Week
UT1 4x10 r3...2.12/500@24spm

Intervals
Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
40:00.0 9,215m 2:10.2 158 845 24 145
10:00.0 2,294m 2:10.7 156 838 24 139
10:00.0 2,306m 2:10.0 159 847 24 144
10:00.0 2,302m 2:10.3 158 844 24 146
10:00.0 2,313m 2:09.7 160 852 24 152
r547m

Hard enough to wane off a bit in the 3rd interval but not so hard I couldn't find a little extra in the last.

[winniewinser]

Nice to see you back on the rower
3rd piece was way faster than target, so take it as a win

Welcome back Al. A promising start too

Thx...hopefully not a false dawn and I can stay healthy for a while.

[Dangerscouse]

C2 Training Guide V2 Original Plan Preparation Phase Hard Week
UT1 4x10 r3...2.12/500@24spm

Intervals
Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
40:00.0 9,215m 2:10.2 158 845 24 145
10:00.0 2,294m 2:10.7 156 838 24 139
10:00.0 2,306m 2:10.0 159 847 24 144
10:00.0 2,302m 2:10.3 158 844 24 146
10:00.0 2,313m 2:09.7 160 852 24 152
r547m

Hard enough to wane off a bit in the 3rd interval but not so hard I couldn't find a little extra in the last.

Am I right in thinking that this is two seconds faster than target? Good to see that push in the last interval too.

[Dangerscouse]

Interesting discussion to listen in to. The mental game is a huge element of it - and you're both much better than me on that. But don't discount the training level too. Although I've been doing this a long time, in my 40s my training wasn't that smart and also only about 100k/month - so despite being much stronger back then I actually set most of my PBs in my 50s when I started training smarter. Since returning in 2016 after a 3+year break I've been doing around 200k/mth. So despite being clearly weaker than my younger self I've still set a couple of PBs at the event extremes when in my 60s (that I tested much less when younger!). But I'm nowhere near now on the main events 2k 5k etc. Also I've noticed a marked decline since I was 65. But is that real or just mental weakness. Always hard to judge.

By contrast Nick has always trained smart and set some standout scores when younger. Inevitably he can't maintain that absolute level as he ages, tho setting the top ranking scores at will must be some consolation!!

I think you're training background is similar to mine Stu in that you didn't do it particularly well for a few years and have got much better at it in more recent years leading to many PBs despite a bit of aging. Keith harder to judge as clearly exceptionally strong and fit - before really getting into the erg so erg fitness came quickly with many exceptional scores set. But you've both been at the top of your erg game for a few years now. WIth that kind of milage under your belts IMO its less likely that there's much room for ongoing lifetime PBs unless you change something in your training regimes to generate it. But no reason to see a decline just yet - I reckon you guys should be able to maintain close to your best to 60 at least.

I find it endlessly fascinating. Fitness and strength are quite easy to quantify and analyse, so they can be addressed relatively easily, albeit it's still hard work, but mental fitness / strength is such a subtle peripheral element that you can forget all about it for too long, and when you have moments of mental weakness, you can all too easily console yourself with it was hard work, and it was to be expected that I couldn't finish.

The ability to differentiate between properly failing and failing due to not wanting to endure needs consistent attention, as it will soon either disappear altogether or morph into you convincing yourself that you're still doing it. Admittedly, this is caveated by the fact that not absolutely everyone needs to do this, as their resolve is bulletproof, but I do think that 98% of us do need to focus on it.

It's always interesting seeing people across so many sporting disciplines who are perceived to be past it, but come roaring back. Maybe it's the reason & desire to keep achieving? It's such a complex thing with so many variables for each of us, nevermind daily fluctuations and ephemeral variables that muddy the waters.

I still partially think I've got a few PBs left in me, but that might just be hubris talking, as I've definitely lost that burning desire for friendly rivalry, although I'm not sure if this temporary or not.

My past training was absolute rubbish until about July 2017. No structure, no intervals, no low rate work, no idea basically!! I'd love to see what would have been possible if I'd made many different decisions 24 years ago when I erged for the first time, and not had about four years with no training at all and getting fat. I was four stone heavier than I am now.

[jcross485]

7/25 - Strength work. I'm noticing a pattern where I want to erg on days I should strength train and vice versa, but I am sticking to the plan. Felt pretty good and strong throughout this session. I've decided to alter deadlifts just a bit; my lightest but highest volume day will still be from a 1.5" deficit, the other two days (moderate weight, moderate volume / heaviest weight, lowest volume) will be from the floor. I picked up another out of town work assignment so will be traveling Sunday through Tuesday with no erg access; I will likely hop on my machine at home first thing Sunday morning before leaving and will be back to it on Wednesday so minimal if any interruption.

Warmup: Empty Barbell; 3 rounds, 10 reps each - Standing Press, Barbell Row, SLDL / RDL

Deadlift: 135 x 5 x 3 sets, 205 x 5, 255 x 5, 295 x 5 x 3 sets

Pull-Up (5 reps), Feet-Elevated Push Ups (10 reps), Walking Lunges (10 reps per leg): 12 rounds (10kg vest)

[iain]

Fitness and strength are quite easy to quantify and analyse, so they can be addressed relatively easily, albeit it's still hard work, but mental fitness / strength is such a subtle peripheral element that you can forget all about it for too long, and when you have moments of mental weakness, you can all too easily console yourself with it was hard work, and it was to be expected that I couldn't finish.

The ability to differentiate between properly failing and failing due to not wanting to endure needs consistent attention, as it will soon either disappear altogether or morph into you convincing yourself that you're still doing it.

How do you quantify fitness? The best you can do is look at your best achievements, but how do we know that these were at the limit? While you can look at HR data, central limiter does seem to stop many hitting HRmax despite apparent maximum effort and then there is uncertainty over whether HR max truly was (particularly in light of recent comments that HRmax declines with fitness, so I have probably over estimated it most of the time!).

Ok this is at the margins and is immaterial besides the variation between people, but we all know of the "miraculous" achievements sometimes achieved that might suggest without the mental limits the possible improvements may be much higher than we think.

I don't think that for 1k+ I have ever not been able to increase the pace at the end (although sometimes there was some decline at the very end despite my attempts to maintain the higher pace). I believe that if we started to accelerate at the right point, we would be physiologically compelled to slow at the end and cross the line at the pace that we were at before accelerating (if you are going quicker, starting earlier would have lead to an improvement). As such I have never pushed to my limit. I break a TT into 2 parts, the psychological where it is fear of not being able to keep the pace up that leads to us slowing or stopping and the physical when we are responding to actual discomfort and deteriorating strength. The more I think about it the later the divide occurs! If you include not pushing as hard as we could due to fear of not maintaining it, this could be most of the TTs!

As for "not wanting to endure" I do think that in training runs there is also a "not beneficial to continue", we could have finished, but if the consequence is to set back subsequent training, it makes sense to stop. That said, this is even harder to distinguish!

On TTs, very few in my experience go to plan. Sometimes I exceed my expectations, other times I convince myself that I was over optimistic.

Finally there is the bizarre issue of "bonking". On the 2 occasions I have experienced this, my HR and pace has dropped despite increased RPE. Fat takes more oxygen to produce the same energy than sugar, so HR should increase! Is this a central override to stop us failing to reserve enough sugar for the brain, or just a failure to mentally override? On one of the occassions I did not drop much below average pace. HR still dropped so HR/Watt declined. So what was happening?

[Dangerscouse]

How do you quantify fitness? The best you can do is look at your best achievements, but how do we know that these were at the limit? While you can look at HR data, central limiter does seem to stop many hitting HRmax despite apparent maximum effort and then there is uncertainty over whether HR max truly was (particularly in light of recent comments that HRmax declines with fitness, so I have probably over estimated it most of the time!).

In this instance, I'm looking at it from a different angle. Fitness being when you stop training for, say three months and then you're clearly struggling. Or possibly doing the same session over a period of time and regressing or progressing (using more than just one example as evidence as that's too susceptible to too many other factors that detrimentally affect you)

So, I'm not referring to the finer shades of fitness as that's a wholly different subject trying to ascertain peak fitness, or just general fitness, and the limits that we put on ourselves.

As for bonking, I've got no idea either as I've also failed at a relatively low HR.

[nick rockliff]

Another 45 min session this evening but this one r24 and a bit of a feeler for a 60min session.

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
45:00.0 11,549m 1:56.8 219 1054 24 145
5:00.0 1,283m 1:56.9 219 1053 24 130
10:00.0 1,283m 1:56.9 219 1053 24 137
15:00.0 1,283m 1:56.9 219 1053 24 140
20:00.0 1,284m 1:56.8 220 1055 24 144
25:00.0 1,283m 1:56.9 219 1053 24 147
30:00.0 1,284m 1:56.8 220 1055 24 150
35:00.0 1,283m 1:56.9 219 1053 24 152
40:00.0 1,284m 1:56.8 220 1055 24 155
45:00.0 1,283m 1:56.9 219 1053 24 154

Should be able to handle another 15 mins if I get the erg outside on a cool day and not so humid.

[dabatey]

indieVelo (Online) Cycling TTT
39 minutes @ Average 218W + 147bpm
Hard work, dropped by team 3 minutes before the finish.

[dabatey]

Fitness and strength are quite easy to quantify and analyse, so they can be addressed relatively easily, albeit it's still hard work, but mental fitness / strength is such a subtle peripheral element that you can forget all about it for too long, and when you have moments of mental weakness, you can all too easily console yourself with it was hard work, and it was to be expected that I couldn't finish.

The ability to differentiate between properly failing and failing due to not wanting to endure needs consistent attention, as it will soon either disappear altogether or morph into you convincing yourself that you're still doing it.

How do you quantify fitness? The best you can do is look at your best achievements, but how do we know that these were at the limit? While you can look at HR data, central limiter does seem to stop many hitting HRmax despite apparent maximum effort and then there is uncertainty over whether HR max truly was (particularly in light of recent comments that HRmax declines with fitness, so I have probably over estimated it most of the time!).

Ok this is at the margins and is immaterial besides the variation between people, but we all know of the "miraculous" achievements sometimes achieved that might suggest without the mental limits the possible improvements may be much higher than we think.

I don't think that for 1k+ I have ever not been able to increase the pace at the end (although sometimes there was some decline at the very end despite my attempts to maintain the higher pace). I believe that if we started to accelerate at the right point, we would be physiologically compelled to slow at the end and cross the line at the pace that we were at before accelerating (if you are going quicker, starting earlier would have lead to an improvement). As such I have never pushed to my limit. I break a TT into 2 parts, the psychological where it is fear of not being able to keep the pace up that leads to us slowing or stopping and the physical when we are responding to actual discomfort and deteriorating strength. The more I think about it the later the divide occurs! If you include not pushing as hard as we could due to fear of not maintaining it, this could be most of the TTs!

As for "not wanting to endure" I do think that in training runs there is also a "not beneficial to continue", we could have finished, but if the consequence is to set back subsequent training, it makes sense to stop. That said, this is even harder to distinguish!

On TTs, very few in my experience go to plan. Sometimes I exceed my expectations, other times I convince myself that I was over optimistic.

Finally there is the bizarre issue of "bonking". On the 2 occasions I have experienced this, my HR and pace has dropped despite increased RPE. Fat takes more oxygen to produce the same energy than sugar, so HR should increase! Is this a central override to stop us failing to reserve enough sugar for the brain, or just a failure to mentally override? On one of the occassions I did not drop much below average pace. HR still dropped so HR/Watt declined. So what was happening?

I don't think HR decreases with fitness, more that specific muscular endurance often can fail before max HR is reached so you might not see it where expected. However, if you tailor say a ramp teat correctly you still should reach max HR when unfit. I managed 182 off the back of zero fitness when I first started rowing and have only seen 184 blips since.
As for unexplained bonks, I have had a couple of bonks after only half an hour fastish steady state rowing which wouldn't seem to be a classic bonk ala cycling for hours without eating. I think this might be something to do with blood sugar crashing as I remember on both occasions I did nothing but eat afterwards for hours.

[Dangerscouse]

1:26:35.0 21,097m 2:03.1 188 945 20 128
12:19.5 3,000m. 2:03.2 187 943 20 123
12:18.3 6,000m. 2:03.0 188 946 20 126
12:19.0 9,000m 2:03.1 187 944 20 129
12:18.7 12,000m 2:03.1 188 945 20 128
12:18.7 15,000m 2:03.1 188 945 20 130
12:18.8 18,000m 2:03.1 187 945 20 132
12:18.0 21,000m 2:03.0 188 947 20 133
0:24.0 21,097m 2:03.7 185 936 20 133

This needed to be kept under control as I've got to try and squeeze in a 6k TT tomorrow morning.