New Personal Best! Brag About That New Pb!

[MartinSH4321]

Totally agree, when season started I thought 6:30 and 1:20 were equally hard to reach till season's end, now it looks like I'll reach 1:20 by just working on my fitness and won't reach 6:30 (and some other distance goals) even working specifically to reach that goals, what a misjudgement!
I also agree that I'm better built for sprints than distance.
But (regarding some other conversations we had) we have different approaches on what goals are preferable. If I get you right, I would summarize your opinion this (very short) way: "You're better built for sprints, so train that and get as good as possible". My approach is to train both strength and fitness but focus on the weaker part. I like the idea of being an overall good/well trained person, even if this means to not use full potential at sprints. I can completely understand your approach, but we differ here, that's OK

You should only do what you want, nothing else.

I disagree on focussing on the weaker part. Reason being, putting effort in something you are good at will yield you less. Talking in general here.

And about an allround trained athlete, in my view, you never will be, fitness will never be very good, put it very bluntly .

But forget they above. My point, for you was, yes train allround, but at times, for a few months, focus on something, and “dare” to let go of the rest, for that while. That way you can build a peak on “something”. After that peak pick up the overall approach. And like to ad to that, your natural “you” is already pushing you to your natural strenght. Yes, you do build a ut2 base, bad what do you test? Not that ut2 base, but the thing you like and ate good at.

It's OK for me to get direct/blunt feedback!
I don't think sprint and distance results have to be about equally strong to be an allround trained athlete, but maybe that's a matter of definition. Two hypothetical examples: If I can do 1:15 at 500m and can't do 8k for 30min I'm a very strong sprinter but single-edged, if I can do 1:17 and 8.400 I'm still a stronger sprinter but, in my mind, fit enough to call myself allround trained.
That's what I have in mind, after just one year of specific distance training I don't know where my fitness limits are (you propably can estimate this better than me), hopefully way beyond my actual PBs as I've read somewhere that it takes about 7 years of specific training to get there

[hjs]

It's OK for me to get direct/blunt feedback!
I don't think sprint and distance results have to be about equally strong to be an allround trained athlete, but maybe that's a matter of definition. Two hypothetical examples: If I can do 1:15 at 500m and can't do 8k for 30min I'm a very strong sprinter but single-edged, if I can do 1:17 and 8.400 I'm still a stronger sprinter but, in my mind, fit enough to call myself allround trained.
That's what I have in mind, after just one year of specific distance training I don't know where my fitness limits are (you propably can estimate this better than me), hopefully way beyond my actual PBs as I've read somewhere that it takes about 7 years of specific training to get there

If you want to be blunt you have to try harder

You won,t find a 1.15 500 meter guy, who can,t pull 8k. Almost impossible.

And 1.17 versus 8400. 8400 is still relative poor, for 1.17 you should be looking at high 8k, maybe even 9k to be on the same level.

To give you an idea, maybe Poor comparison, but we are roughly alike build wise. Different age ofcourse, so shall give you some stats from me. In my Early 30 ies at my very first 2k, second row ever I pulled 6.38.9.

After 6 weeks, no ut2 work, only middle distance intervals. Mostly 3x1500 or 4x1250 5/6 rest, I got a 6.31
And again 6weeks later, 6.19

That was on the base on three rows per week, roughly 15/20k a week, next to that fitness. Before that always been active in sports, but never specific, always been “allround”.

In those days I only did either 2k time trials and sometimes a 6k. Also raced both distances. Pb 6.14.7 and 142.4 6k also 8700 30, min 2.56 1k which was my best possible.
Erged for a 3/4 winters, 3 times per week, in summer fully stopped.

In those days I already had a poor back, which hindered me. Around my 6.14 and 8712 I again simple stopped, certainly that 8700 was not a max row.

[KeithT]

It's OK for me to get direct/blunt feedback!
I don't think sprint and distance results have to be about equally strong to be an allround trained athlete, but maybe that's a matter of definition. Two hypothetical examples: If I can do 1:15 at 500m and can't do 8k for 30min I'm a very strong sprinter but single-edged, if I can do 1:17 and 8.400 I'm still a stronger sprinter but, in my mind, fit enough to call myself allround trained.
That's what I have in mind, after just one year of specific distance training I don't know where my fitness limits are (you propably can estimate this better than me), hopefully way beyond my actual PBs as I've read somewhere that it takes about 7 years of specific training to get there

If you want to be blunt you have to try harder

You won,t find a 1.15 500 meter guy, who can,t pull 8k. Almost impossible.

And 1.17 versus 8400. 8400 is still relative poor, for 1.17 you should be looking at high 8k, maybe even 9k to be on the same level.

To give you an idea, maybe Poor comparison, but we are roughly alike build wise. Different age ofcourse, so shall give you some stats from me. In my Early 30 ies at my very first 2k, second row ever I pulled 6.38.9.

After 6 weeks, no ut2 work, only middle distance intervals. Mostly 3x1500 or 4x1250 5/6 rest, I got a 6.31
And again 6weeks later, 6.19

That was on the base on three rows per week, roughly 15/20k a week, next to that fitness. Before that always been active in sports, but never specific, always been “allround”.

In those days I only did either 2k time trials and sometimes a 6k. Also raced both distances. Pb 6.14.7 and 142.4 6k also 8700 30, min 2.56 1k which was my best possible.
Erged for a 3/4 winters, 3 times per week, in summer fully stopped.

In those days I already had a poor back, which hindered me. Around my 6.14 and 8712 I again simple stopped, certainly that 8700 was not a max row.

Dang Henry, I knew you had some good results in the past but didn't realize how good - that was some serious work!

I saw where you did mostly mid-intervals - do you think that is a good approach? As you know I spent the first part of the year doing mostly longer rows and didn't do much interval or speed work - have added that back recently but typically just one or two intervals a week. Should I do even more intervals and less SS as I start honing in for CrashBs (May 1)?

[hjs]

Dang Henry, I knew you had some good results in the past but didn't realize how good - that was some serious work!

I saw where you did mostly mid-intervals - do you think that is a good approach? As you know I spent the first part of the year doing mostly longer rows and didn't do much interval or speed work - have added that back recently but typically just one or two intervals a week. Should I do even more intervals and less SS as I start honing in for CrashBs (May 1)?

It got me to a certain level, but did stagnate. I do think I can help build a peak, and certainly when your natural speed is not a weak point.
The point with Ut2 is, it certainly works, but you need massive volume, which almost nobody, here on the forum does.

And to go from a base to real peak, takes adjusting and getting both physically as mentally ready. I think a good buildup from a solid base form to a peak, can give 5/10 seconds on a 2k in say 10/12 weeks. You need to build the toughness and gritt to really be able to do those last 3/4 min. on the red line. And there mid distance intervals come in play.

I did use a hf cap. Took my hf reserve and used 88/93% of my reserve. So not flat out but just below.

[MartinSH4321]

It's OK for me to get direct/blunt feedback!
I don't think sprint and distance results have to be about equally strong to be an allround trained athlete, but maybe that's a matter of definition. Two hypothetical examples: If I can do 1:15 at 500m and can't do 8k for 30min I'm a very strong sprinter but single-edged, if I can do 1:17 and 8.400 I'm still a stronger sprinter but, in my mind, fit enough to call myself allround trained.
That's what I have in mind, after just one year of specific distance training I don't know where my fitness limits are (you propably can estimate this better than me), hopefully way beyond my actual PBs as I've read somewhere that it takes about 7 years of specific training to get there

If you want to be blunt you have to try harder

You won,t find a 1.15 500 meter guy, who can,t pull 8k. Almost impossible.

And 1.17 versus 8400. 8400 is still relative poor, for 1.17 you should be looking at high 8k, maybe even 9k to be on the same level.

To give you an idea, maybe Poor comparison, but we are roughly alike build wise. Different age ofcourse, so shall give you some stats from me. In my Early 30 ies at my very first 2k, second row ever I pulled 6.38.9.

After 6 weeks, no ut2 work, only middle distance intervals. Mostly 3x1500 or 4x1250 5/6 rest, I got a 6.31
And again 6weeks later, 6.19

That was on the base on three rows per week, roughly 15/20k a week, next to that fitness. Before that always been active in sports, but never specific, always been “allround”.

In those days I only did either 2k time trials and sometimes a 6k. Also raced both distances. Pb 6.14.7 and 142.4 6k also 8700 30, min 2.56 1k which was my best possible.
Erged for a 3/4 winters, 3 times per week, in summer fully stopped.

In those days I already had a poor back, which hindered me. Around my 6.14 and 8712 I again simple stopped, certainly that 8700 was not a max row.

I just use some numbers to nail my position down, but you're right, the first example is pretty impossible, maybe some 200kg powerlifters and strongmen who can't sit on the erg for 30min
Totally agree that 1:17 is much stronger than 8.400. Good example for an almost even strong erger is Jason Marshall (also does the CTC, often wins if Olli Zeidler takes a break ), he does about 9k / 1:15 / sub6 2k. But I stick to my position that 1:17 and 8400 is "allround trained".

Your stats are very impressive! But you're right, can't compare your efforts with mine, too short space of time and too many unknown variables.
First, and most important for me to have a better impression: When you write "always active in sports", this can mean a lot. It makes a huge difference if you, for example, cycled 15-20h/week for 10 years and train weights 3x/week or play soccer with friends 2x/week, cycle once a week and push some weights 1-2x/week.In the first case you're propably pretty close to your natural limit regarding building base fitness, in the second you've won the genetic lottery, I guess your background is somewhere in the middle
So bad your back hindered you, sounds like you definitely had the potential for sub6
My background is propably very different from yours. Before I started erging I almost did no endurance training for about 10 years, so it's save to say I started at zero (regarding endurance).
For me, the question is: How much can an average guy build up his fitness within about 5-7 years, starting from zero, with specific training up to 10h/week? I've read that it's possible to improve fitness 5-10% per year for some years, and of course more at the beginning due to newbie gains, so my first estimation would be about +50-60%.
My first 2k TT, after 2 weeks training, was 7:15,5 (271W), +50% are about 410W or 6:20, +60% about 430W or 6:15. Do you think that's a realistic long-term-goal? I know, hard to estimate and a lot of uncertainty, but it always helped me to have a long-term-goal to stay fucussed and motivated, so every educated guess is very welcome . At strength training it was the 200kg bench press, which I missed but at least I came close, and the goal definitely helped.

[hjs]

It's OK for me to get direct/blunt feedback!
I don't think sprint and distance results have to be about equally strong to be an allround trained athlete, but maybe that's a matter of definition. Two hypothetical examples: If I can do 1:15 at 500m and can't do 8k for 30min I'm a very strong sprinter but single-edged, if I can do 1:17 and 8.400 I'm still a stronger sprinter but, in my mind, fit enough to call myself allround trained.
That's what I have in mind, after just one year of specific distance training I don't know where my fitness limits are (you propably can estimate this better than me), hopefully way beyond my actual PBs as I've read somewhere that it takes about 7 years of specific training to get there

If you want to be blunt you have to try harder

You won,t find a 1.15 500 meter guy, who can,t pull 8k. Almost impossible.

And 1.17 versus 8400. 8400 is still relative poor, for 1.17 you should be looking at high 8k, maybe even 9k to be on the same level.

To give you an idea, maybe Poor comparison, but we are roughly alike build wise. Different age ofcourse, so shall give you some stats from me. In my Early 30 ies at my very first 2k, second row ever I pulled 6.38.9.

After 6 weeks, no ut2 work, only middle distance intervals. Mostly 3x1500 or 4x1250 5/6 rest, I got a 6.31
And again 6weeks later, 6.19

That was on the base on three rows per week, roughly 15/20k a week, next to that fitness. Before that always been active in sports, but never specific, always been “allround”.

In those days I only did either 2k time trials and sometimes a 6k. Also raced both distances. Pb 6.14.7 and 142.4 6k also 8700 30, min 2.56 1k which was my best possible.
Erged for a 3/4 winters, 3 times per week, in summer fully stopped.

In those days I already had a poor back, which hindered me. Around my 6.14 and 8712 I again simple stopped, certainly that 8700 was not a max row.

I just use some numbers to nail my position down, but you're right, the first example is pretty impossible, maybe some 200kg powerlifters and strongmen who can't sit on the erg for 30min
Totally agree that 1:17 is much stronger than 8.400. Good example for an almost even strong erger is Jason Marshall (also does the CTC, often wins if Olli Zeidler takes a break ), he does about 9k / 1:15 / sub6 2k. But I stick to my position that 1:17 and 8400 is "allround trained".

Your stats are very impressive! But you're right, can't compare your efforts with mine, too short space of time and too many unknown variables.
First, and most important for me to have a better impression: When you write "always active in sports", this can mean a lot. It makes a huge difference if you, for example, cycled 15-20h/week for 10 years and train weights 3x/week or play soccer with friends 2x/week, cycle once a week and push some weights 1-2x/week.In the first case you're propably pretty close to your natural limit regarding building base fitness, in the second you've won the genetic lottery, I guess your background is somewhere in the middle
So bad your back hindered you, sounds like you definitely had the potential for sub6
My background is propably very different from yours. Before I started erging I almost did no endurance training for about 10 years, so it's save to say I started at zero (regarding endurance).
For me, the question is: How much can an average guy build up his fitness within about 5-7 years, starting from zero, with specific training up to 10h/week? I've read that it's possible to improve fitness 5-10% per year for some years, and of course more at the beginning due to newbie gains, so my first estimation would be about +50-60%.
My first 2k TT, after 2 weeks training, was 7:15,5 (271W), +50% are about 410W or 6:20, +60% about 430W or 6:15. Do you think that's a realistic long-term-goal? I know, hard to estimate and a lot of uncertainty, but it always helped me to have a long-term-goal to stay fucussed and motivated, so every educated guess is very welcome . At strength training it was the 200kg bench press, which I missed but at least I came close, and the goal definitely helped.

Martin, I did track and field, and Basketball, and later on weights. Track the field events. 100m 11.7 1500 4.32. Highjump 194, shot close to 15.
And we over here cycle as a means of transportation, so that adds up. So really allround and nothing really outstanding. Bench 154kg.
Yours 200 is impressive to me, never seen guys do that clean. What weight did you have in those days.

Re, your Goals, really difficult to say. I have an other example for, friend of mine, did 800 and 1500, pb 154, 3.56 from memory. He later picked up rowing and weights. He started around 7.10 and years later got 6.24. Also sub 3 1k.

For you, improvement should not be liniar, the first year will give you the most gains. Also, I seen your numbers, but don,t see you row in person. Making it difficult.

Sub 6.30 looks certainly possible, 6.20 maybe. You should get a better idea once you really try a few 2k s. And again, you will be someone who will be better on the speedside of things. Your 1k, will relative beat your 5k.
Improving your 5k will help a lot, but I think your body will not like doing so. Given your muscle fiber build.

Coming back to speedskating, those guys do a lot of endurance work, even the sprinters, but a sprinter stays a sprinter and vise versa. A former Wr sprint, now runs marathons in his forties, sub 3. Again showing, yes he is fit and well trained, but nowhere near his sprintresults.

[MartinSH4321]

Martin, I did track and field, and Basketball, and later on weights. Track the field events. 100m 11.7 1500 4.32. Highjump 194, shot close to 15.
And we over here cycle as a means of transportation, so that adds up. So really allround and nothing really outstanding. Bench 154kg.
Yours 200 is impressive to me, never seen guys do that clean. What weight did you have in those days.

Re, your Goals, really difficult to say. I have an other example for, friend of mine, did 800 and 1500, pb 154, 3.56 from memory. He later picked up rowing and weights. He started around 7.10 and years later got 6.24. Also sub 3 1k.

For you, improvement should not be liniar, the first year will give you the most gains. Also, I seen your numbers, but don,t see you row in person. Making it difficult.

Sub 6.30 looks certainly possible, 6.20 maybe. You should get a better idea once you really try a few 2k s. And again, you will be someone who will be better on the speedside of things. Your 1k, will relative beat your 5k.
Improving your 5k will help a lot, but I think your body will not like doing so. Given your muscle fiber build.

Coming back to speedskating, those guys do a lot of endurance work, even the sprinters, but a sprinter stays a sprinter and vise versa. A former Wr sprint, now runs marathons in his forties, sub 3. Again showing, yes he is fit and well trained, but nowhere near his sprintresults.

It was "only" 192,5kg, my strongest discipline, together with dumbbell shoulder press I would say (100x6), and I also haven't seen another guy benching that weight where I'm 100% sure he's clean, but for sure there are some BW was a bit higher than now, about 103kg, but stronger upper body and thinner lower body.
Thanks for your insight, this helps a lot! At season's start I thought of 6:15 as long-term-goal, looks my goal was a bit high, but not totally absurd. I'm very curious and a bit nervous about my 2k's in about 4 weeks, they'll give me a better idea for sure.

[jimmyshand]

I'm enjoying this Martin/Henry exchange, very useful and informative. I also used to be a basketball player, quite seriously but that ended at 29. Was quite fast but better at say 400m than 100m.

But I did bring my 5k down by a few seconds yesterday in a 'feeling kind of rough but try anyway' PB attempt.

Definitely feel like I have more in me but I was happy enough with this. Pleased mostly with the disciplined pacing.

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
18:16.9 5,000m 1:49.6 265 1212 25
1:50.4 500m 1:50.4 260 1195 26
1:50.6 1,000m 1:50.6 259 1190 24
1:50.2 1,500m 1:50.2 262 1200 24
1:50.5 2,000m 1:50.5 259 1192 24
1:50.3 2,500m 1:50.3 261 1197 24
1:50.1 3,000m 1:50.1 262 1202 25
1:49.8 3,500m 1:49.8 264 1209 26
1:49.8 4,000m 1:49.8 264 1209 26
1:48.8 4,500m 1:48.8 272 1235 26
1:46.5 5,000m 1:46.5 290 1297 26

[MartinSH4321]

I'm enjoying this Martin/Henry exchange, very useful and informative. I also used to be a basketball player, quite seriously but that ended at 29. Was quite fast but better at say 400m than 100m.

But I did bring my 5k down by a few seconds yesterday in a 'feeling kind of rough but try anyway' PB attempt.

Definitely feel like I have more in me but I was happy enough with this. Pleased mostly with the disciplined pacing.

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
18:16.9 5,000m 1:49.6 265 1212 25
1:50.4 500m 1:50.4 260 1195 26
1:50.6 1,000m 1:50.6 259 1190 24
1:50.2 1,500m 1:50.2 262 1200 24
1:50.5 2,000m 1:50.5 259 1192 24
1:50.3 2,500m 1:50.3 261 1197 24
1:50.1 3,000m 1:50.1 262 1202 25
1:49.8 3,500m 1:49.8 264 1209 26
1:49.8 4,000m 1:49.8 264 1209 26
1:48.8 4,500m 1:48.8 272 1235 26
1:46.5 5,000m 1:46.5 290 1297 26

Well done Alasdair, very constant pacing and a strong finish. On a "feel good" day you'll hit 18:10 for sure!
Yeah, Henry's experience is always appreciated and very helpful, great to have him here

[philjoakley]

I'm enjoying this Martin/Henry exchange, very useful and informative. I also used to be a basketball player, quite seriously but that ended at 29. Was quite fast but better at say 400m than 100m.

But I did bring my 5k down by a few seconds yesterday in a 'feeling kind of rough but try anyway' PB attempt.

Definitely feel like I have more in me but I was happy enough with this. Pleased mostly with the disciplined pacing.

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
18:16.9 5,000m 1:49.6 265 1212 25
1:50.4 500m 1:50.4 260 1195 26
1:50.6 1,000m 1:50.6 259 1190 24
1:50.2 1,500m 1:50.2 262 1200 24
1:50.5 2,000m 1:50.5 259 1192 24
1:50.3 2,500m 1:50.3 261 1197 24
1:50.1 3,000m 1:50.1 262 1202 25
1:49.8 3,500m 1:49.8 264 1209 26
1:49.8 4,000m 1:49.8 264 1209 26
1:48.8 4,500m 1:48.8 272 1235 26
1:46.5 5,000m 1:46.5 290 1297 26

Nice row Alasdair, especially if you were feeling rough. Rested up there will be a few more seconds to come of this. Well done.

[Dangerscouse]

I'm enjoying this Martin/Henry exchange, very useful and informative. I also used to be a basketball player, quite seriously but that ended at 29. Was quite fast but better at say 400m than 100m.

But I did bring my 5k down by a few seconds yesterday in a 'feeling kind of rough but try anyway' PB attempt.

Definitely feel like I have more in me but I was happy enough with this. Pleased mostly with the disciplined pacing.

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
18:16.9 5,000m 1:49.6 265 1212 25
1:50.4 500m 1:50.4 260 1195 26
1:50.6 1,000m 1:50.6 259 1190 24
1:50.2 1,500m 1:50.2 262 1200 24
1:50.5 2,000m 1:50.5 259 1192 24
1:50.3 2,500m 1:50.3 261 1197 24
1:50.1 3,000m 1:50.1 262 1202 25
1:49.8 3,500m 1:49.8 264 1209 26
1:49.8 4,000m 1:49.8 264 1209 26
1:48.8 4,500m 1:48.8 272 1235 26
1:46.5 5,000m 1:46.5 290 1297 26

Well done Alasdair. When you're feeling better, sharpen up your form after time off and you get your rate up a bit more you'll be knocking on sub 18's door

[hjs]

I'm enjoying this Martin/Henry exchange, very useful and informative. I also used to be a basketball player, quite seriously but that ended at 29. Was quite fast but better at say 400m than 100m.

But I did bring my 5k down by a few seconds yesterday in a 'feeling kind of rough but try anyway' PB attempt.

Definitely feel like I have more in me but I was happy enough with this. Pleased mostly with the disciplined pacing.

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
18:16.9 5,000m 1:49.6 265 1212 25
1:50.4 500m 1:50.4 260 1195 26
1:50.6 1,000m 1:50.6 259 1190 24
1:50.2 1,500m 1:50.2 262 1200 24
1:50.5 2,000m 1:50.5 259 1192 24
1:50.3 2,500m 1:50.3 261 1197 24
1:50.1 3,000m 1:50.1 262 1202 25
1:49.8 3,500m 1:49.8 264 1209 26
1:49.8 4,000m 1:49.8 264 1209 26
1:48.8 4,500m 1:48.8 272 1235 26
1:46.5 5,000m 1:46.5 290 1297 26

Nice one, you sure had good height, I was about the shortest guy with my 1.86

[jimmyshand]

Nice one, you sure had good height, I was about the shortest guy with my 1.86

I did play at the small forward position so always felt kind of medium-sized! But glad it's an advantage in rowing.

[winniewinser]

I'm enjoying this Martin/Henry exchange, very useful and informative. I also used to be a basketball player, quite seriously but that ended at 29. Was quite fast but better at say 400m than 100m.

But I did bring my 5k down by a few seconds yesterday in a 'feeling kind of rough but try anyway' PB attempt.

Definitely feel like I have more in me but I was happy enough with this. Pleased mostly with the disciplined pacing.

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
18:16.9 5,000m 1:49.6 265 1212 25
1:50.4 500m 1:50.4 260 1195 26
1:50.6 1,000m 1:50.6 259 1190 24
1:50.2 1,500m 1:50.2 262 1200 24
1:50.5 2,000m 1:50.5 259 1192 24
1:50.3 2,500m 1:50.3 261 1197 24
1:50.1 3,000m 1:50.1 262 1202 25
1:49.8 3,500m 1:49.8 264 1209 26
1:49.8 4,000m 1:49.8 264 1209 26
1:48.8 4,500m 1:48.8 272 1235 26
1:46.5 5,000m 1:46.5 290 1297 26

Congrats on the new PB! Good job!

[nick rockliff]

My first 2k TT, after 2 weeks training, was 7:15,5 (271W), +50% are about 410W or 6:20, +60% about 430W or 6:15. Do you think that's a realistic long-term-goal? I know, hard to estimate and a lot of uncertainty, but it always helped me to have a long-term-goal to stay focused and motivated, so every educated guess is very welcome .

With the right training at your age 6.15 from a 7.15 start shouldn't be a problem. My first ever 2k was also 7.15 in May 2003 and was down to 6.28 by March 2004 and 6.16 by Sept 2005 age 48. Anything below 1609 mtr (Mile) I was rubbish though

Plenty of UT2 UT1 and AT sessions did it for me.