Ranger's training thread

[PaulH]

My sharpening over the next two months will tell the story clearly, but your claim here is just hot air.

Oh dear ranger, you keep making the same mistake! You've got no more than a month of sharpening left, because as we know everyone sharpens in about the same way, for about the same effect.

[ranger]

The difficulty with learning to row well is right there from the beginning, at the earliest point in your training--at low rates.

For instance, as a lightweight, to row (pretty darn) well, you need to be able to go along, steady state, say, 1:48 @ 23 spm (12 SPI), working _very_ easily, with a UT2, or perhaps low UT1 HR, for as long as you want--a HM, a FM, 50K, etc.

So, there it is.

How do you get it done?

Rowing poorly at max drag, back in 2002-2003, I could row 1:48 @ 23 spm, but not at steady state, only with a continually rising HR that went up over my anaerobic threshold pretty early on and forced me to stop before I had done 20min.

With a lighter stroke (10 SPI) and a higher rate (28 spm), I could do 1:48 for an hour with a HR right at my anaerobic threshold, 172 bpm, but I couldn't do 1:48 at lower rate (23 spm), steady state, with a more powerful stroke (12 SPI), and a lower HR (e.g., 150 bpm).

So, I couldn't row well.

ranger

[ranger]

My sharpening over the next two months will tell the story clearly, but your claim here is just hot air.

Oh dear ranger, you keep making the same mistake! You've got no more than a month of sharpening left, because as we know everyone sharpens in about the same way, for about the same effect.

I am not just sharpening, although I am doing that, too.

I continue to work on my distance/UT1 rowing.

So, I think this work will be productive for at least the next six months.

I need to do a FM, 1:48 @ 23 spm, a HM, 1:45 @ 25 spm, 60min, 1:44 @ 26 spm, 10K, 1:43 @ 27 spm, etc.

I am working on it.

This doesn't have anything to do with rowing well at BIRC 2010.

I'll row just fine at BIRC 2010.

But I think I might row even better at WIRC 2011, when my distance rowing is entirely in place, too, not just my sharpening.

ranger

[ranger]

If you are a lightweight and you go along 1:56 @ 23 spm (10 SPI), as the best 55s and 60s lwts do, rather than 1:48 @ 23 spm (12 SPI), as the elite younger lwts do, there is something massive missing in your stroke.

You are missing certain sorts of leverage--every time.

You have a severe technical problem.

You are short sliding, or not using your back sufficiently, or mistiming your levers, pulling too early with your back and arms, or not finishing completely, or losing contact at the footplate, or not using your calves in the middle of your drive, or not driving off the balls of your feet at the catch, or not setting your heels properly for the leg drive, or...

ranger

[hjs]

Lets say Mr X, who has looked after himself physically all his life

Again, I am not sure what you mean by "looked after himself physically."

If you don't use it, you never develop it, and then if you neglect it, you lose it.

I started competitive speed skating when I four years old and hung with it almost 10 years.

In high school and college, I was a competitive runner (track and cross-country), swimmer, and canoeist for a decade.

Then as an adult, I was a road racer and marathoner for 25 years. I put in about 80 miles a week on the roads.

So, I developed it early and never neglected it.

I think this physical history explains my skeletal-motor fitness and high maxHR now that I am 60, not some special gift.

My accomplishments in sport when I was younger were _very_ modest.

There was no evidence there of any special gifts at all.

I just always like working hard at it--in fact, about as hard as I could.

ranger

How come although you always worked hard you never where succesfull in any sport, untill you found erging .................. ?

[mrfit]

BTW, the 6:29.7 I pulled in 2006, unprepared, rowing poorly at high drag
ranger

Sorry to pop your bubble, but the 2006 6:29.7 row was done at low drag 133. Future rows will not benefit from an illusion of the past (although perhaps there is a placebo effect, hence the "sorry").

[mrfit]

Second to the last post on this page is your report on the drag factor at Baltimore.

http://concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.p ... 60#p184501


After that row you seemed fairly fired up to get your anaerobic workouts in and make progress that season. What happened? Just curious, really.

[hjs]

Second to the last post on this page is your report on the drag factor at Baltimore.

http://concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.p ... 60#p184501


After that row you seemed fairly fired up to get your anaerobic workouts in and make progress that season. What happened? Just curious, really.

Rich:

Nice row.

Drag factor? 110?

-- Mark

133 df.

ranger

So again a proven Lie from Dangy...........

[PaulH]

I am not just sharpening, although I am doing that, too.

I continue to work on my distance/UT1 rowing.

So, I think this work will be productive for at least the next six months.

Quite possibly, but your sharpening only has a month at most to run. I imagine its important to separate out the avenues for improvement that are open to you, so you don't get confused about your potential performance.

[mikvan52]

(ranger reports df that took him to a great performance)

133 df.

ranger

IMO:
133 is not a low drag factor for an older lwt. on the erg
I weigh (24/7) between 155 and 165 lbs all year.
I erg at a DF of 106-112 for the 2k distance. I pulled a 6:47 and a 6:49 last winter.
It works well for someone built as I am. I would suggest that the load is heavy enough at around 110 df for any 55-59 lwt...
and so say several reputable coaches.

When I rowed the fastest ranked 55-59 500m last winter I upped it to 126...
The way that feels is not the way I'd like it to for 4 times the distance.

I operate under the assumption that indoor rowers who punch the catch hard and then let go (spike the force curve) teach themselves a skill that will get them a good erg score. All well and good. But if they want to row on the water, they are doing themselves an enormous disservice.
I do, however, use high DF in a small percentage of my training.

For years I have noticed:
High drag, catch punchers lose on the water to those who train with longer sustained drives at lower DF => note I say: on the water...
I feel, too, that I have validation on this:

Victories this year (March through September 2010):

The San Diego Crew Classic (CA)(sweep, in an 8) (at the 2k distance)
The Black Fly regatta (VT)(6k in 1x)
Sweeps and Sculls (RI) (1k in 1x) * all time personal record 3:40.18
Diamond States (DE) (1k in 1x) 55-59
Masters Nationals (NJ) (1k in 1x) 55-59 open
Masters Nationals (NJ) (1k in 1x) 55-59 lwt * These last two contests involved four 1ks (I won them all)
Masters Nationals (NJ) (1k in 2x) 55-59 lwt
GMS Invitational (CT) (9k in 1x) looking at all 55-59 participants
Green Mountain Head (VT)(5k in 1x) 55-64 open (45 participants)

I know this is of little interest to ergers. Just thought I'd point it out as it bears on the "trash talk" emanating from Ann Arbor in my "general direction"... I am interested in winning on the water."Dawn breaks over Marblehead!": I will not compromise my training just to get another hammer at WIRC.

IMO: ranger has painted himself into a corner with his high DF RWB (IN ONE MAJOR RESPECT) ... He has taught himself a form that does poorly when applied to sculling. Hence he will never win OTW unless he revises his approach to form which would demand, among other things, that he lower his DF in training.... and 130 DF is not low enough for a lwt.

[NavigationHazard]

IMO it makes sense for OTW rowers to do the bulk of their erging at drag factors roughly congruent with the actual drag of their boat(s). The closer the 'feel' the fewer impediments there will be in transferring fitness on the erg to hull speed on the water.

As far as the ideal shape of a force curve OTW, Kleshnev for years now has identified various 'styles' with somewhat different curves resulting from somewhat different sequencing/emphasis. What's best? IMO the one that moves the boat you're in the best over the distance you want to cover. Different rowers with different physical characteristics (body types/proportions) may well be suited individually to different styles. It gets more complicated when you get to multiple-rower boats, when synchronization and synergy need to be considered as well. All sweep rowers and all scullers in anything besides a 1x need to mesh well with everyone else. This may or may not dictate a stroke profile that's optimum for erg results.

The whole point is that there almost certainly is no one ideal force furve for everyone. Claims that 'I do something other 60s LWs don't' are specious for lots of reasons: not yet 60, not (yet?) a LW, no evidence whatsoever about their force curve amplitudes or contours, misrepresentation of the claimed amplitude and contour. Over and above that, what others are doing -- especially OTW rowers like Mike -- may well be better suited to their individual physiques, physiologies, and training/competition goals.

While I'm at it, let me suggest once again that fetishizing peak handle force for its own sake is silly. Hammering the catch on the erg demands very hard, very abrupt muscle contractions that can't be sustained. Lowering the peak peak force facilitates sustainability. Or to put it another way, efficiency comes from doing more with less. Trying to do more with more is muppetheaded -- thereby firmly implanting it in Ranger's contrarian praxis....

[ranger]

I know that I have been working hard when I ride my bike.

I am comfortable, sure, or I wouldn't want to do it for 90min a session, but I am still breathing pretty hard.

And the deluge of sweat is a give-away that some pretty good work is getting done.

But sheesh, no kidding.

My Suunto watch arrived yesterday and I rode my bike with it for the first time today.

As it turns out, I don't get to a maximum temperature until about 45min, but from then on my HR flatlines at 161 bpm.



So for the last 45min of my 90min rides, my HR is above 160 bpm.

Wow.

By the forumula, 220- age, the projected maxHR for a 60-year-old is 160 bpm.

Mike VB, who is a year and a half younger than I am, has a maxHR is 163 bpm.

And I am doing this biking for three hours a day, just to relax and lose weight, between bouts of harder work OTErg and OTW?

Hmm.

Yep.

Workin' hard, I'd say.

No wonder I don't think I need any more low rate rowing.

No wonder I always think that my cross-training is the most important thing I do, that it keeps me feeling young.

I am cross-training at relatively high UT1.

My anaerobic threshold is 172 bpm.

Top-end UT2 is 145 bpm.

BTW, before I got on my bike, my Suunto watch said that my resting HR was 43 spm.

Nice!

ranger

[ranger]

When I cross-train on the stepper, stepping along at 300 watts, my HR is flat at 140 bpm when I go for 90min, as I have reported many times.

So I am working quite a bit harder on my bike.

I suppose I could have guessed that from my sweat-o-meter.

When I am on the stepper over at the gym for a couple of hours, sure, I produce a lot of sweat--buckets.

People around me at the gym get more than a bit spooked, just watching the waterfall.



But nothing like the sweat I produce when I ride.

OTBike, I lose a liter of water an hour.

ranger

[ranger]

My maxHR is still 190 bpm.

That's pretty high for a 60-year-old with a resting HR of 43 spm who can row 1:48 @ 23 spm (12 SPI) on the erg, steady state, for as long as he wants, with a HR of around 150 bpm.

ranger

[ranger]

Quite possibly, but your sharpening only has a month at most to run. I imagine its important to separate out the avenues for improvement that are open to you, so you don't get confused about your potential performance.

This is October 2nd.

BIRC is November 21st.

Why is there only a month left in my sharpening for BIRC?

Do you think I should stop sharpening for BIRC on November 2nd?

Why?

So I am _really_ rested?

What do you suggest, a three-week vacation to the Bahamas, and as much rum and coke as I can drink for three weeks, just to make sure I keep loose?



ranger