Ranger's training thread

[ranger]

There are plenty of others by comparison who train really hard who will never get close to your times no matter how hard they train.

Depends on what you mean by "no matter how hard they train."

You need to specify.

For instance, for five years or so, every day, I jumped rope for an hour and did 1000 sit ups _before_ rowing 20K.

When I was preparing to race, I added to this daily regimen of skipping, sit ups, and erging, 100min on a stepper at 300 watts.

At that point, I was doing about 5 hours a day.

In the summers, I substituted a 10-mile run for the jumping rope and two hours on my bike for the stepping.

Do you mean train like that?

ranger

[mikvan52]

Training is important but talent is more. You can do al the trainig you want if you don,t have raw talent you will never become really fast.

Ah, Henry.

Sad show, mate.

This is just a convenient excuse for those without the smarts to learn or guts to train.

Disappointing stuff.

ranger

I thought I would bring this over from the locked thread to ask if you really stand by this as I tend to disagree with you.

I understand you managed a sub 06:30 aged around 52 without really training for it and with less than perfect technique.

There are plenty of others by comparison who train really hard who will never get close to your times no matter how hard they train. The reason for that in many cases has a lot to do with genetics and you are off the mark if you dismiss a lack of natural potential as a convenient excuse.

Remember, Kev:
It is fruitless to use logic with a troll

Did you watch the instructional video yesterday?
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=FMEe7JqBgvg&feature=fvw

[mikvan52]

As for the "burning of fat" study vs. ranger nonsense/nonscience

Here are some real things to think about should anyone want to read what was suggested this morning:
(exerpts… very interesting)

Before commencing these studies, our hypothesis was that fat oxidation would be elevated on days when exercise was performed, and that fat oxidation would be higher in endurance-trained individuals. To our surprise, we have found that exercise has little, if any, effect on 24-h fat oxidation. Thus, there is an apparent paradox between the effects of acute and chronic exercise on fat metabolism in skeletal muscle versus the effects on 24-h fat oxidation. The purpose of this review is to 1) summarize the effects of exercise on fat metabolism; and 2) discuss the effects of exercise on 24-h fat oxidation.
Other Sections▼
(snip)

Effects of exercise on fat metabolism in skeletal muscle
The sources of lipid available to skeletal muscle during exercise are circulating very-low-density lipoprotein-triglycerides (VLDL-TG), intramuscular triglyceride (IMTG), and circulating albumin-bound long chain fatty acids (LCFA) derived from lipolysis of subcutaneous and visceral adipocytes. The effects of exercise on oxidization of the different sources of fat have been extensively studied, and the evidence clearly indicates that the primary source of fatty acids (FA) in exercising skeletal muscle is LCFA, especially during prolonged or low-intensity exercise.

(snip)

Endurance exercise training increases the capacity skeletal muscle fat oxidation by increasing mitochondrial density, the activity of enzymes involved in β-oxidation, and oxygen delivery to muscle. Recent evidence also suggests that endurance training increases the gene expression and protein content of several FA transporters, which may aid in the uptake and delivery of FA to mitochondria.

(snip)

Whether training alters the source of fatty acids oxidized during exercise is not clear.

(snip)

At the same absolute workload, whole-body lipolytic rates are similar in sedentary and endurance-trained individuals and are not affected by endurance training; thus, delivery of LCFA to skeletal muscle is the same. However, during exercise performed at the same relative intensity, lipolytic rate is greater in trained individuals and is increased with training. Although the mechanism is not known, the increase may be related to the greater absolute work being performed.

(snip)

Exercise and fat oxidation
It is well-established that whole body fat oxidation increases with exercise intensity up to ~55-65% of VO2max, but decreases at higher exercise intensity [1, 22]. Why fat oxidation decreases at high exercise intensities is not completely understood, but evidence suggests a decrease in FFA availability due to a decrease in blood flow to adipose tissue, a limited capacity per unit time to generate ATP from oxidation of plasma FFA, or a decrease in the activity of CPT1 [1]. The exercise intensity at which maximal fat oxidation rates occur varies according to training status, sex, and mode of exercise.
(snip)
It is also well-established that endurance training increases fat oxidation during submaximal exercise [1]. These adaptations have commonly been observed in response to moderate intensity (60-75% of VO2max) exercise training programs lasting 6-12 weeks. A few studies have shown that daily moderate intensity training sessions (2 hr/day) induce an increase in fat oxidation during exercise within 7-10 days. In addition, sprint interval training at very high power outputs (150-300%) produce similar increases in oxidative capacity as does moderate-intensity, longer duration training programs, and high-intensity interval training (90%) has been shown to elicit similar increases in as little as two weeks.

(snip.. on to effects of diet)

If subjects are in positive energy balance (intake>expenditure), carbohydrate oxidation increases and fat oxidation decreases [9]; conversely, if subjects are in negative energy balance (intake<expenditure) carbohydrate oxidation decreases and fat oxidation increases.

(snip… leaving out some revealing details)

In lean subjects, 24-h RQ was significantly higher during HI (0.89 ± 0.01) compared with the LI (0.86 ± 0.01) and CON (0.86 ± 0.02). 24-h fat oxidation did not differ across conditions and was 90 ± 13, 79 ± 16, 86 ± 15 g/day in obese individuals (CON, LI, and HI, respectively), and 92 ± 13, 92 ± 16, 73 ± 15 g/day in lean individuals (Figure 2). Thus, consistent with our previous studies, there was no evidence that fat oxidation was increased with exercise

(snip)

Effects of endurance training
To our knowledge, no studies have considered the effects of endurance training on 24-h fat oxidation. Since training increases fat oxidation during exercise, it is widely assumed that 24-h fat oxidation will be higher in trained individuals on a day when exercise is performed. To address this, we have recently studied n a group of endurance-trained individuals under non-exercise and exercise conditions [20]. During the exercise condition, subjects performed 60 minutes of stationary cycling at 55% of VO2max, an intensity which should be close to the maximal fat oxidation rates [1]. Pre-study dietary control and energy balance was achieved as in our previous studies. We have studied nine competitive runners and triathletes (5 females, VO2max = 46.1 ± 1.5 ml/kg/min; 4 males, VO2max = 54.2 ± 3.6 ml/kg/min, with VO2max measured using stationary cycling ergometry. All subjects reported a minimum of 5 hours per week of endurance training (average = 7 ± 1 hrs). 24-h RQ was 0.90 ± 0.04 (mean ± SD) on the non-exercise day (CON), and 0.92 ± 0.04 on the exercise day (EX). 24 h carbohydrate oxidation was significantly higher in the EX compared to the CON day (459 ± 45 vs. 342 ± 31 g, mean ± SE), but 24 h fat oxidation was unchanged (55 ± 9 vs. 44 ± 8 g on the CON and EX day, respectively) (Figure 4). Fat balance was also not affected by exercise (−4 ± 10 vs. 26 ± 10 g). Strikingly, 5 of the 9 athletes achieved negative fat balance on the CON day, but only 2 of these subjects achieved negative fat balance on the exercise day (Figure 5). Thus, even in endurance-trained individuals, we see no evidence of an increase in 24 h fat oxidation on the day when exercise is performed.

(snip)

If acute exercise and chronic exercise training induce changes in skeletal muscle that favor an increase in fat oxidation, why doesn't 24-h fat oxidation increase when exercise is performed? The most likely factor is the effect carbohydrate intake on lipolysis and fat oxidation.

(snip)
The finding that exercise does not increase 24-h fat oxidation when individuals are studied in energy balance provokes two questions. First, how do endurance-trained individuals maintain a low fat mass? Fat mass will not decrease unless fat oxidation exceeds fat intake. Thus, it is possible that endurance-trained individuals maintain a low fat mass because their habitual fat intake is lower than their total fat oxidation. It is also possible that individuals participating in regular endurance training are in a state of negative energy balance on most of their training days. It seems reasonable that an individual expending high levels of energy (e.g. 800 or more kcals per day) may not completely replace the calories expended during training. Even if this difference were small (e.g. <100 kcal), it would create a state of negative energy balance and increase 24 h fat oxidation, and the repetitive effect over sequential days could have a substantial effect on fat mass. However, our ability to detect such small differences, especially in free-living individuals, is limited. Another factor to consider is the effect of consecutive days of high-intensity training. As mentioned previously, glycogen-depleting exercise increases fat oxidation in the subsequent 24-h period [25]. Thus, if glycogen stores are not completely restored prior to the subsequent exercise training session, fat oxidation may be increased. Additionally, it should be mentioned that endurance-trained individuals are likely to perform some training sessions for longer durations than we have studied so far. Since LCFA becomes a much more important fuel source with increasing exercise duration, and also because this type of training is likely to deplete muscle glycogen stores, it is possible that 24 fat oxidation is increased in response to long-duration exercise bouts (e.g. > 1 hr). Finally, we have only studied responses to cycling exercise, which as discussed above, may have lower maximal fat oxidation rates compared to running and walking.

(snip)
we suggest that it is time to put the myth that low-intensity exercise promotes a greater “fat burn” to rest. Clearly, exercise intensity does not have an effect on daily fat balance, if intake is unchanged. We must educate the public that participation in moderate doses of exercise will not burn more fat unless changes are made to energy or fat intake.



Anyone with an honest interest in the subject might want to consider reading the entire article/study....

"Pools-O-sweat" is not what it's all about!

[ThatMoos3Guy]

Fascinating article, thanks for the link. Who knew this thread might have something useful hidden away in it? Another article Ranger might want to read: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-lo ... -loss.html

[KevJGK]

There are plenty of others by comparison who train really hard who will never get close to your times no matter how hard they train.

Depends on what you mean by "no matter how hard they train."

You need to specify.

For instance, for five years or so, every day, I jumped rope for an hour and did 1000 sit ups _before_ rowing 20K.

When I was preparing to race, I added to this daily regimen of skipping, sit ups, and erging, 100min on a stepper at 300 watts.

At that point, I was doing about 5 hours a day.

In the summers, I substituted a 10-mile run for the jumping rope and two hours on my bike for the stepping.

Do you mean train like that?

ranger

No I mean he trains hard!

Lets say Mr X, who has looked after himself physically all his life is doing say 60k per week of a good varied erg specific training plan and after say 5 years diligent training at age 45 he finally breaks 6:55 for 2K with a balls out gut wrenching pewk inducing stomach churning lip smacking motivating fast living ever giving cool fizzin heart busting rocket fuelled lifetime best effort.

There are plenty of folk that general level may apply to.

There is no way in a million years Mr X is ever going to break 06:30 as long as he has a hole in his ass.

You on the other hand broke 06:30 with bad technique without even preparing for it when you were 7 years older without apparently even breaking sweat.

So what is Mr X’s convenient excuse because he certainly has “the smarts to learn” and the “guts to train.”?

[hjs]

There are plenty of others by comparison who train really hard who will never get close to your times no matter how hard they train.

Depends on what you mean by "no matter how hard they train."

You need to specify.

For instance, for five years or so, every day, I jumped rope for an hour and did 1000 sit ups _before_ rowing 20K.

When I was preparing to race, I added to this daily regimen of skipping, sit ups, and erging, 100min on a stepper at 300 watts.

At that point, I was doing about 5 hours a day.

In the summers, I substituted a 10-mile run for the jumping rope and two hours on my bike for the stepping.

Do you mean train like that?

ranger

No I mean he trains hard!

Lets say Mr X, who has looked after himself physically all his life is doing say 60k per week of a good varied erg specific training plan and after say 5 years diligent training at age 45 he finally breaks 6:55 for 2K with a balls out gut wrenching pewk inducing stomach churning lip smacking motivating fast living ever giving cool fizzin heart busting rocket fuelled lifetime best effort.

There are plenty of folk that general level may apply to.

There is no way in a million years Mr X is ever going to break 06:30 as long as he has a hole in his ass.

You on the other hand broke 06:30 with bad technique without even preparing for it when you were 7 years older without apparently even breaking sweat.

So what is Mr X’s convenient excuse because he certainly has “the smarts to learn” and the “guts to train.”?

There are also people who jump on the erg for the first time and easily break that 6.56 in there first try. There are ergers who break 6 minutes in there first season. Has nothing to do with talent, just the right attitude


That mister x is a sissy boy, he should really try and stop fussing around. Just like Ranger was a sissy boy in his running days, he could barely break 3 hours on the marathon. And talent doesn't matter so if he really tried he should have a alt least at sub 2.15 level

[Byron Drachman]

Feb 7, 2006:I have just been learning a quality OTW stroke. That project is now complete.

June 27, 2010: given that I was just out in my Fluid, doing 1:56 @ 31 spm. No one my age is rowing any better, including Dietz and Spousta, who, between them, have won the Head of the Charles a couple of dozen times.

June 28, 2010: There is no longer anything wrong at all with my rowing on the erg or OTW.

July 7, 2010: I'll post some video of my OTW rowing over the next couple of days.

August 27, 2010: Now, I row _very_ well, both OTW and off.

September 2, 2010: I'll get a video of my rowing now, say, 2:05 @ 25 spm in my Fluid.

I am sure your devoted followers would appreciate the promised video of the quality OTW stroke.

[jliddil]

Anyone with an honest interest in the subject might want to consider reading the entire article/study....

"Pools-O-sweat" is not what it's all about!

This is a general review article that covers fat metabolism in general and what is thought vs what is known. I do encourage others to read the whole thing and also try to get the references when available. I am fortunate to have pretty broad access to most of the references as well. It is not meant to be the gospel.

Ranger should just gouge his eyes out since he can not learn anything from reading anyway. no wonder he never made full prof.

[nysaag]

Ranger, the nay-doer, will never post a video of himself rowing 2:05 @ 25 spm in his Fluid.
Ranger, the nay-doer, will never row below 6:40 OTE.
Ranger, the nay-doer, will never pay Henry the money he owes him.
And, Ranger, the nay-doer, will not race in head races this year.

Ranger, the nay-doer, will always be a troll.

[mrfit]

It looks as though I will make weight for the first time in the middle of next week.

Then I want to lose 10 more lbs. by the time BIRC rolls around at the end of November.


ranger

Why 155 lbs as a desired state?

155 lbs. is just a limit for me.

So why not?

That's 5% body fat, weight in high school as a three-sport athlete.

ranger

Well your car will go 120 as a limit, but that's not the reason why one would drive at that speed. Why do you want to weigh what you did in high school? Is that a quality of fitness for rowing, 5% body fat? Regadless, I can tell you from experience at low body fat you get VERY cold in the winter.

[lancs]

I can tell you from experience at low body fat you get VERY cold in the winter.

Sounds like another perfect excuse to me for Him not to turn up at Boston again...

[aharmer]

I can tell you from experience at low body fat you get VERY cold in the winter.

Sounds like another perfect excuse to me for Him not to turn up at Boston again...

Sorry lancs, that wont come for another several weeks. We'll wake up one morning about 5 weeks from now with a "wow, hard to believe but..." message about something. Which reminds me, remember fairly recently when he smashed his thumb so bad it was all swollen, purple and basically dead? Then he mistakenly posted a picture a couple days later showing his thumb and it was perfectly healed? Not sure what the purpose of lying about the thumb was, but he ruined his own lie. That was a good one.

[whp4]

Translation: he weighs himself after workouts, not before them. To have a hope of being 165 lbs for a weigh-in without significant pre-race dehydration/rehydration problems, he has to be something considerably less than 165 lbs post-workouts.

An honest assessment of his hamsterweight would require weighing himself when properly rehydrated and fed. Since that would reveal how much heavier he is than he'd like us to believe, he won't do that. And we'll get the usual flurry of posts claiming, variously, 1) his weight is actually fine; 2) he's really burning fat, contrary to human physiology; 3) the cross-training doesn't at all degrade performance, as it's not really hard despite being more than anyone else on the planet is doing; 4) he's eating and drinking normally, although if he really were doing what he claims he'd be expending 4-5 kcal/day more than he's taking in and doing his body all sorts of damage....

And to further add take a look at this article (free). Not so much for the general conclusions but the discussion around actual research on exercise and the ability to burn fat.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... ool=pubmed

Why would I need to read articles about losing fat?

I have been losing fat to prepare to row as a lightweight, repeatedly, for almost a decade now.

I have made weight a couple of dozen times at race venues.

Fait accompli, two dozen times.

ranger

Right, and it worked so well in 2006, going from a 6:29.7 as a heavyweight to an astonishingly fine 7:04.3 as a lightweight a few weeks later for your final WIRC appearance....that was the time you "almost" broke the heavyweight mark rowing as a lightweight

[mikvan52]

the time (ranger) "almost" broke the heavyweight mark rowing as a lightweight

I heard he feel down and cut himself after that race but his blood was so viscous it couldn't come out of his veins!

[ranger]

Lets say Mr X, who has looked after himself physically all his life

Again, I am not sure what you mean by "looked after himself physically."

If you don't use it, you never develop it, and then if you neglect it, you lose it.

I started competitive speed skating when I four years old and hung with it almost 10 years.

In high school and college, I was a competitive runner (track and cross-country), swimmer, and canoeist for a decade.

Then as an adult, I was a road racer and marathoner for 25 years. I put in about 80 miles a week on the roads.

So, I developed it early and never neglected it.

I think this physical history explains my skeletal-motor fitness and high maxHR now that I am 60, not some special gift.

My accomplishments in sport when I was younger were _very_ modest.

There was no evidence there of any special gifts at all.

I just always like working hard at it--in fact, about as hard as I could.

ranger