The virtues of a rower.

[hjs]

After a while, it will be realized that education that is controlled by students is no education at all.

What should it be controlled by as an alternative? Who are the rightful declarers of the standards? Isn't a teacher simply a more experienced student? How does all this fit it to your own autodidact enterprise. If you fail to improve your race times or even improve but fail to reach your stated goals, will you listen to advice from others on how you might improve or will you shut them down as usual and simply continue to reiterate your own ideas about what a good rower should do to improve? You say you submit to rowing itself as your "teacher". But it is easy to hear what you want the teacher to say when you ignore or silence the critics.

If ?

the answer is already given.....

in 2004/05/06/07/08 and 09................

[eliotsmith]

Some of the qualities discussed so far seem more like personality traits than virtues.

Virtues and vices are not always personality traits but personality traits are always virtues or vices.

I do not agree, at least not withing the context of MBTI typing. Each end of the E-I, N-S, T-F, and J-P dimensions has different strengthes and weaknesses, but each type is neutral in the base as near as I can tell. Being an ENTP does not make me intrinsically a better person or role model than an ISFJ. Likewise, within a single MBTI type it is possible to find both virtuous and virtueless examples of people.

I don't know if I am understanding you correctly. To fill in what I intended, we may make a list of virtues but each one in that list may not be a personality trait. However, when we make a list of personality traits, each one will be a virtue or vice in some person's opinion. I don't think we disagree but perhaps I am wrong.

[eliotsmith]

After a while, it will be realized that education that is controlled by students is no education at all.

What should it be controlled by as an alternative? Who are the rightful declarers of the standards? Isn't a teacher simply a more experienced student? How does all this fit it to your own autodidact enterprise. If you fail to improve your race times or even improve but fail to reach your stated goals, will you listen to advice from others on how you might improve or will you shut them down as usual and simply continue to reiterate your own ideas about what a good rower should do to improve? You say you submit to rowing itself as your "teacher". But it is easy to hear what you want the teacher to say when you ignore or silence the critics.

If ?

the answer is already given.....

in 2004/05/06/07/08 and 09................

I am trying to give him the benefit of a new year!

[ranger]

If you fail to improve your race times or even improve but fail to reach your stated goals, will you listen to advice from others on how you might improve

You mean, if I row a lwt 6:18 at 60 rather than a lwt 6:16 and only break the 60s lwt WR by 24 seconds rather than 26 seconds, I should seek advice immediately to correct all of the things I might have missed or done wrong in my training?

I don't see the logic.

Could you explain?

Last year, I had the best 2K time in my age and weight division by three seconds, without even preparing for it, just on the basis of foundational training, with no distance rowing or sharpening.

You can't be better than the best.

Why should I be disappointed with being the best?

Beyond that, it is just up to me, in terms of commitment and training, how good I can be.

Unless someone my age and weight can beat me by doing something different, I don't see any reason to take their advice.

That would be silly.

Clearly, my training is already the best.

I am just trying to make it better.

It is up to others whether they want to be the best, too, and follow what I am doing, or continue to do what they are doing and lose.

It doesn't make any sense for me to do what they are doing so that I will be slower, like them.

ranger

[Nosmo]

Guys can we move discussion of ranger to the 6:28 thread. This is off topic.

[eliotsmith]

Of course, if you get very close...

But what would your average time over the whole season have to be for you to see your training plan as inadequate? 7:00? 6:30? 10:00?

[eliotsmith]

Guy's can we move discussion of ranger to the 6:28 thread. This is off topic.

I think I understand your frustration. However, I do think that a discussion of education is always involved in a discussion of virtue(s). And I think ranger does have something meaningful to add to that, but if we are to let him add this good, we must allow the "pork". Plus, even a willfully deceptive and knavish person will utter a true opinion. To think otherwise is to lower ourselves further than our declared enemy.

[Nosmo]

Guy's can we move discussion of ranger to the 6:28 thread. This is off topic.

I think I understand your frustration. However, I do think that a discussion of education is always involved in a discussion of virtue(s). And I think ranger does have something meaningful to add to that, but if we are to let him add this good, we must allow the "pork". Plus, even a willfully deceptive and knavish person will utter a true opinion. To think otherwise is to lower ourselves further than our declared enemy.

I sort of agree but if every thread becomes about ranger, the forum will be really limited and not worth much. Staying on topic I think should be something we at least keep in mind when we respond. I'm just asking.

[NavigationHazard]

On the subject of making those around you better:

Row2k.com feature from 2000:

In other sports(wo)manship of note: after winning the junior women's final going away, Caryn Davies didn't punch the air, wave to the crowd, or collapse on her erg. Instead, she took one stroke, and immediately started cheering for her teammate Deborah Dryer who [was] sitting immediately to her right. Team comes first in our sport...

This was trumped a couple of years ago by the classiest thing I've ever been privileged to see at an erg race. At the EIRC in Amsterdam, US rowing legend Carie Graves noticed the competitor immediately to her left struggling during their race -- and started coxing her rival home while erging (and winning) herself. I already had lots of reasons to admire Carie; this was one more example of why she's not just good but great.

[pmacaula]

Nav - Those are fantastic. Carie and Caryn's displays of sportsmanship in the heat of battle are amazing.

Here a few of the small things I have witnessed within the erging community that make going back an forth on a rail much more than that. I have a lot of time & respect for those who consistently do these things.

- welcoming newcomers, without regard to their experience or goals & helping them find their way to a training structure and pace that works for them.
- going the extra mile to find and point to information (links, articles, old postings, etc.) that will help someone get to the next level or address a problem.
- Showing up for and pacing someone for a PB attempt or milestone erg session.
- Holding on in the RowPro post session chat to cheer the 'lanterne rouge' across the line.
- Easing off a bit during a hard session to let a training partner have their HTFU moment & get back in the game.

The best on the water rowers do many of the same things, though the environment is a bit different. The small percentage of rowers who do these things make rowing clubs work. allowing others simply to show up, go for a row & then go home....

These are certainly not unique to erging/rowing, but they are behaviours of true sportsmen/women and they create the environment that lifts the performance of all, right up to those at the elite level.

The funny thing is that this somewhat altruistic or selfless behaviour seems to get rarer the higher the stakes, even though the thousand acts of this type are what have helped many to get to the top.

Anyhow, that is my shot at late Friday night dime-store philosophizing...

[eliotsmith]

From pmacaula's previous post, we should add altruism to the list:

Good rowers
exhibit

integrity
obsession
a "can do" attitude
truthfulness
expect the worst (fatalism) (tongue in cheek (?))
good attitude
limit pride (humility)
w/o discussion: do what is needed and should be done in order to earn (their goals) (stoicism?)
altruism

[mikvan52]

Glad our list continues to grow!

Good rowers
exhibit

integrity
obsession
a "can do" attitude
truthfulness
expect the worst (fatalism) (tongue in cheek (?))
good attitude
limit pride (humility)
w/o discussion: do what is needed and should be done in order to earn (their goals) (stoicism?)
altruism

Another trait we might add is resilience in the face of adversity. This might be what was meant (in most parts) by "expect the worst". It's covered too by p-mac's "HTFU moment"

When I watch the following video I often think of the resilient toughness of rowing athletes.

Click: Mike Spracklen coaching

(I'm one of those potentially tedious men who like lots of references )... so I'll finish this post by suggesting a good read: The Red Rose Crew (About excellence in the beginning of US Women's Int'l rowing.... and many passages about Carrie Graves..... (Thanks for that anecdote Nav' !)

Here's a decent Review

[TomR]

Let's not get too self-congratulatory.

What are the characteristics of someone who will sit alone on an erg for an hour, yo-yoing back and forth? Like a swimmer, up and down his lane, following the black line.

The characteristics of rowers resemble those of other endurance athletes. Hence all the broken down runners who find the erg. These are people who have an uncommon willingness to endure dull and joyless activity for some ultimate intangible goal. This is not necessarily a virtue--it is merely a characteristic that, quite reasonably, looks odd to many.

Scullers, at least, have to be strongly self-motivated, uncommonly disciplined, willing to endure the anhedonia of extended training. I don't know that this is "integrity" or "truthfulness." It is obsession married to rudimentary physical activity (as compared to say the physical activity involved in playing tennis). My guess is that rowers for some reason need to go off into some narrow, repetitive space. It is their particular weirdness.

[Yankeerunner]

Let's not get too self-congratulatory.

What are the characteristics of someone who will sit alone on an erg for an hour, yo-yoing back and forth? Like a swimmer, up and down his lane, following the black line.

The characteristics of rowers resemble those of other endurance athletes. Hence all the broken down runners who find the erg. These are people who have an uncommon willingness to endure dull and joyless activity for some ultimate intangible goal. This is not necessarily a virtue--it is merely a characteristic that, quite reasonably, looks odd to many.

Harsh, but fair

BTW, will you be able to make it down to Nbpt next week? There is lodging available in Merrimac (watch for an email later today).

[mikvan52]

Hi Tom:

Feeling a little misanthropic vis-vis rowers this morning, are we?

If we're looking at what is truly good =>
Wouldn't you say, though, that there's more virtue in a rower's heaven than say a honky-tonk one? The angels of rowing are, IMHO, superior to those of the smokier climes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tQjcjBvVzQ

BTW (that's a young ranger on rhythm guitar wearing the glasses)

Another way to phrase the same question:
Disregarding haughty self-regard for one's athletic prowess, masochism and endorphin addiction, aren't there many salutary traits to our admittedly bizarre sport?