Am I sick??? shocked by my numbers

[jackarabit]

Jost writes:

PS guys, ive done HIIT style training on my rower for over a decade.
Ive never been injured, because my form is really good. Practiced it a lot.
Shit form at high power/sprints = injuries.

Wondering if you retain average pace info from your heavy HIITER decade? Possible 2k pace is frequently predicated on high intensity interval session results if no actual 2kTT done. Is that the basis of your SWAG at 2k pace done with interval “style” execution?

A proxy governor on effort such as HR cap is neither predictor nor promise of any particular level of power generation initially or with devoted praxis—it’s a method to monitor AND cap effort. Benefits may be physiological adaptation or active rest.

Polarized training implies not one pole but two and certainly not three as you imply in one of your posts. Polarized training is not periodized training. If you want to do martial arts and bore yourself stupid resting up from high demand jujitsu, do so. Perhaps I lack imagination but I can’t scratch my head to an understanding of what pace/power you expect from a throttled heart function?

“Stop on the Red
Go on the Green
Dont mess with Mista Inbetween.”

[jost]

Im doing polarized training and trying to keep my heart rate at 105, or 110, or whatever.
If I pull any harder, my HR exceeds my zone 1.

I can pull much much harder. But thats not the point.

You glossed over the first part of my reply. Why do you have such a weak stroke? Seriously, I have to try very hard to row as weakly as you do at 22spm. I suspect something is wrong with your rowing stroke. Perhaps you shoot the slide. Post a video.

[mitchel674]

Im doing polarized training and trying to keep my heart rate at 105, or 110, or whatever.
If I pull any harder, my HR exceeds my zone 1.

I can pull much much harder. But thats not the point.

You glossed over the first part of my reply. Why do you have such a weak stroke? Seriously, I have to try very hard to row as weakly as you do at 22spm. I suspect something is wrong with your rowing stroke. Perhaps you shoot the slide. Post a video.

But that is my point. You're not a rower. You have a weak and inefficient stroke. You should take a second and acknowledge that you might have some flaws in your stroke which are causing this. I'm telling you to pull smarter, not harder. Could be as simple as shooting the slide. You will never know, because you won't post a video.

[kini62]

I think you're WAY over complicating things. You keep bringing up what world class athletes do. Are you world class? Probably not, so don't try and do what they do.

We have research on this. Dr Seiler was asked the question if this type of training used by elite athletes scaled down to regular non-athlete people. He said it absolutely does. Proved it in the lab. They are focused on finding the most optimal training. Why wouldnt I use the knowledge? If im going to commit to putting a ton of time into rowing, I want the most returns possible.

So one guy says the program scales down. I can't say he's wrong but you scaled it down and ended up "paddling" at 50 watts for half an hour. Might as well have taken a nap. Overall result would've been about the same.
You have to realize that world class athletes even at zone 1 are doing work. You at zone 1 are doing no work. Me at zone 1 am also barely doing any work.
Here's an apple to oranges example. I'm working in zone 4 power on zwift. I get passed by some guy in zone 1 power. He's actually doing more work than me. That's one reason why the top athletes can still make improvements spending a substantial amount of time in zones 1-3, they're still doing a significant amount of work.
Up to you though. Paddle away for hours on end at 50-100 watts and what you'll end up with is the ability to produce 100 watts of power for extended amounts of time with little to no improvement in fitness.

Just my opinion of course.

[mict450]

Personally, I only noticed significant performance improvements when I disregard heart rate training bands and focus only on producing wattage. If I only paid attention to heart rate I'd never progress.

I've read some articles advocating a lot of slow low intensity steady state, and that that produced better aerobic fitness as evidenced by lower resting heart rates. I tried that for about 6 months and detrained substantially. Made me slower and my resting heart rate actually increased, I was doing about 80-100km slow steady state per week. However, training higher wattage and shorter weekly distances gives me a lower resting heart rate (presently in the 40s) then when I tried a more Maffetone approach of more distance and lower wattage with strict heart rate caps. I have to do what works for me. I don't bother with the heart rate monitor anymore. It seems to work well for some people, didn't work well for me. Try it and if it doesn't work out try something else.

amp, I found your post most interesting. I've been keeping my HR in UT2 or zone 2 per Joe Friel since March & been puzzled that my resting HR has slowly risen from 52 to the mid 60's. I'll try some faster SS training into the UT1/zone 3 areas & see what happens.

Interesting note: figuring out my zones per Allen & Coggins FTPw calculations, I should be working out at a higher intensity than I am currently using. I'll see what happens.

[ampire]

Personally, I only noticed significant performance improvements when I disregard heart rate training bands and focus only on producing wattage. If I only paid attention to heart rate I'd never progress.

I've read some articles advocating a lot of slow low intensity steady state, and that that produced better aerobic fitness as evidenced by lower resting heart rates. I tried that for about 6 months and detrained substantially. Made me slower and my resting heart rate actually increased, I was doing about 80-100km slow steady state per week. However, training higher wattage and shorter weekly distances gives me a lower resting heart rate (presently in the 40s) then when I tried a more Maffetone approach of more distance and lower wattage with strict heart rate caps. I have to do what works for me. I don't bother with the heart rate monitor anymore. It seems to work well for some people, didn't work well for me. Try it and if it doesn't work out try something else.

amp, I found your post most interesting. I've been keeping my HR in UT2 or zone 2 per Joe Friel since March & been puzzled that my resting HR has slowly risen from 52 to the mid 60's. I'll try some faster SS training into the UT1/zone 3 areas & see what happens.

Interesting note: figuring out my zones per Allen & Coggins FTPw calculations, I should be working out at a higher intensity than I am currently using. I'll see what happens.

The polarized training depends upon doing extremely hard intervals as well as the easy low intensity at high volume, if you aren't doing those HIIT components, you would probably lose fitness if just doing the high volume low intensity only. The idea is to maximize the rigor of the hard days by going easy the rest of the time. I probably didn't go hard enough when I was doing it. For what its worth, I am making faster progress overall just trying to produce more watts on every distance each week, and on those occasions when I do wear a HR band I see improvements in wattage at any given heart rate. And its nice to not do 100km a week, which was time consuming and tedious.

[mict450]

The polarized training depends upon doing extremely hard intervals as well as the easy low intensity at high volume, if you aren't doing those HIIT components, you would probably lose fitness if just doing the high volume low intensity only. The idea is to maximize the rigor of the hard days by going easy the rest of the time. I probably didn't go hard enough when I was doing it. For what its worth, I am making faster progress overall just trying to produce more watts on every distance each week, and on those occasions when I do wear a HR band I see improvements in wattage at any given heart rate. And its nice to not do 100km a week, which was time consuming and tedious.

Okay, that clarifies it. I rarely do hard intervals. At best, I'll do an occasional fartlek where I'll intersperse power 10's, 20's throughout my SS sessions. Time for a reset.

[ampire]

I started adding HIIT two days a week, and the result has really boosted my longer distance performance, not just the HIIT workouts, so the HIIT must have a potent improvement effect across all training bands.

[jost]

Im a grappler. I get tons of zone 2 and zone 3 work.
Thus my focus on zone 1, which I dont get at all.

So im not concerned about making sure im getting enough zone 2/3. Im probably getting too much already.

I need to build a cardio base. The current calculations for zone 1 without lactate threshold testing are obviously flawed... at least for my age. Way too easy. Not working.
Will just have to do some experiments.

And its not about my form. Im OCD about form. Done the video reveiews already. Watched the form videos a bazillion times. Compared my videos. Form is not my issue. Having a zone 1 incorrectly calculated way too low is my issue.

I need to speed up, but without accidentally exiting zone 1. However, I still dont know where that line is. Frustrating.

I think ill just find a lab. Its not that expensive.

[mict450]

I started adding HIIT two days a week, and the result has really boosted my longer distance performance, not just the HIIT workouts, so the HIIT must have a potent improvement effect across all training bands.

Good to know it carries over to SS sessions.

[jamesg]

The current calculations for zone 1 without lactate threshold testing are obviously flawed

If you have HR range say 56 to 166, then UT2-UT1 (60 to 80%) according to Karvonen is:

Low UT2: 56 + 66 =122.
High UT1: 56 + 88 = 144.

If interested in rowing as such, you need a stroke that lets you stay under rating 20 for UT2, under 23 for UT2.
Endurance for rowing is not long slow, it's long hard, because racing is medium distance, 2k, and uses all possible muscle.
For pieces longer than 3-4k, expect some extra HR drift.
Training trains, so allow for progression.

[GlennUk]

The current calculations for zone 1 without lactate threshold testing are obviously flawed... at least for my age. Way too easy. Not working.

Out of curiosity how have you arrived at your HRmax value, I found despite undertaking a specific test to determine HRmax values that the test did not generate a true value, being somewhat 14bpm lower than measured during another exercise (the CTC test in June).

Are you confident that the value you are using as the basis for your calculations is 'correct'?

There's a lot of discussion about specific HR, when in fact the only thing that matters for this discussion is your specific HR values and not anyone else's when determining what actual HR is relevant to you and your targets.

Re the wattage, I'm 60, my last single distance row of any duration (2 hours) was 121 watts at 19spm and HR less than 85% HRmax. Im not entirely sure precisely what wattage i 'should' pull, but it is what it is.

Make of it what you will, but whatever the actual HR you need and the wattage i suggest are factors personal to you and the specific regime that you follow which means the actual values we are all quoting relate to us and not you.

Good luck with whatever regime you follow.

[mitchel674]

Maybe you are.

You asked these same questions over 2 years ago.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=186380

[jackarabit]

Maybe you are.

You asked these same questions over 2 years ago.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=186380

Like Groundhog Day except heart has enlarged from peanut to walnut.

[Tsnor]

Excellent post. Thank you so much.

Only issue is... im so "edurance weak" im not even capable of those tests.
An FTP test... hahahhahaa no way. Even a 20 min all out effort... forget it. Id fall apart so fast.
I would have to do it soooo slow, it would be a joke, and im not sure it would provide useful data.

I see HR fade, even at a pace, that is so damn easy, I dont feel like it qualifies as exercise at all.
Yet at the end of the 30 minutes, there is clear fade in my performance.

Once again, my "endurance strength" is shocking me. Just hard to fathom how bad it is.

Suggestion: Use HR drift as a sign you need to reduce your workouts a bit now, not increase them. Keep at it 6 weeks. You'll see huge change. Then start fine tuning how hard to go. Given your plan (excellent) you just need to get to the starting line. If you look closely at some of the research for non-elite athletes the exercise measured was walking. Your output now is higher than walking.