What is steady state?

[gooseflight]

In my case, it worked out well to just row a power that was 10 times my rate. 160W at 16, 180W at 18, etc.

That's very cool

[hjs]

Greg, how does your steady state now relate to L4 paces for your 2k? How much do you back off?

I myself also like the l4 format, but not being a super well trained aerobic erger the paces I should do where pretty demanding, let alone getting to 70/80 min sessions. My weightwork also hinders my erging.

[Bob S.]

For example, if you row a 7:00 2K, your 2k pace is 1:45. The WP L4 pace / rate combos are:
16 / 2:11
18 / 2:07
20 / 2:03
22 / 1:58
24 / 1:54
26 / 1:49

I had wondered if the WP recommendation were based on constant "SPI". Out of curiosity, I ran those numbers through the calculations, and was surprised to find that, not only was there a lot more variability than I expected, but there was a significance increase in the work/stroke in the last half of the workout.
155.7 watts; 9.73 watt-minutes per stroke
170.9W; 9.49W'/S
188.1W; 9.41W'/S
213.0W; 9.68W'/S
236.2W; 9.84W'/S
270.3W; 10.40W'/S

I don't agree with you on one item. The UM women's team was not elite for college level when Mike Caviston took them over. As I understand it, they had had a rather mediocre season before that. It was after he took over and developed the plan that they started winning championships.

I do agree and strongly, that the plan takes the boredom out of long sessions. The only time I did one was when you kindly sent me a prepared workout. What struck me most about it was the concentration it required to keep the rates and paces on track. I am sure that the need to stay strongly focused on that is one of the major benefits from the WP. It was my bad that I didn't have the motivation to continue with it.

Thanks for picking up the baton and providing those 2 posts.

Bob S.

[hjs]

No l4 is not based on fixed spi. Mike used his ows trainingpaces as base, and rounded numbers. No complicated math or anything.

[sander]

I have done L4 according to the Wolverine document in the past. As Greg described, starting at the lower "sequences" in the beginning of the season and then building up.

When I did that, I quickly found out that I shouldn't use the pace table based on my 2k PB, but rather take an estimate of my current fitness. So, for example, when my PB was 6:58, I would usually use the values for 7:04 and that would be good workouts for me, but not necessarily steady state according to the Lactate < 2.0 mmol/L definition.

When I started doing lactate testing, I knew what average power I should not go above, but I used a modified version of the "sequences" to avoid boredom. The Wolverine sequences have stroke rate jumps of 2spm. For example, a typical 10' sequence would be 4'/3'/2'/1' at 16/18/20/22 spm, or 2'/2'/2'/2'/2' at 18/20/18/20/18 spm.

I do use the sequences. I like how breaking up a 10 minute interval as 2'/2'/2'/2'/2' or 4'/3'/2'/1' breaks the boredom, but I use 1spm steps. So, for example, yesterday I did a 3x20'/1R steady state erg session at 180W target power and at one point I chose to use the 4'/3'/2'/1' format with 20/21/22/23spm with 170/180/190/200W power to break the boredom. I moved away from Caviston's power tables and just try to row a "natural" stroke.

Doing a lot of steady state means you have to have a strategy to avoid the boredom. Having to monitor time and stroke rate and varying them is one strategy. Another strategy is to prepare audio content to listen to (audio books, courses, or good sound tracks). I use all of those strategies because, frankly, I die a little when I have to spend 90 minutes in my erg basement. OTW rowing on the lake, running in the forest, or cycling from village to village is so much more fun.But I believe that a number of SS sessions should be rowing specific and I don't always have time to drive to the lake for an OTW Steady State session. Also, the lake freezes in the winter.

[gregsmith01748]

Greg, how does your steady state now relate to L4 paces for your 2k? How much do you back off?

I myself also like the l4 format, but not being a super well trained aerobic erger the paces I should do where pretty demanding, let alone getting to 70/80 min sessions. My weightwork also hinders my erging.

The honest answer is that I don't really know. I haven't done a 2K test since last winter. The closest thing I have to go on was this month's CTC, which I did with an avg pace of 1:47.6. I suspect that if I did an all out 2K right now, I would be just under 7:00.

So, the paces per the plan would be:
2:11
2:07
2:03
1:58
1:54
1:49

I went back and compared this to my 10W per stroke rule of thumb and I found something interesting. I think I was training to the 2K of my memories instead of where I really am now. Here is a comparison table.



The first column is stroke rate. The second is the WP paces looked up from the WP tables. The third column is essentially there because I was testing the same theory that Bob S. was talking about. I figured the SPI for the 2K pace, using my typical 2k stroke rate of 32. Then I scaled the power down with the rate to maintain a constant SPI. As you can see the constant SPI column ends up with much lower power at the higher stroke rates (270 for WP vs 246 for SPI at 26 spm, for example). The next column is basically the same as the constant SPI column, but instead of calculating backward from the 2K rate and pace, it uses the guideline that the r18 power should be about 60% of 2K power, and the uses the 10W per stroke to calculate the other powers. The last column is for the 10MPSS crowd. This is a training method that I think Paul Smith advocated where you try to row 10 meters per stroke at all stroke rates in your workouts. This has an even more extreme increase in power per stroke than the WP does at higher stroke rates.

Anyway, looking at the table, my 10W per stroke is actually harder than the paces that I would be using from the WP. I think for where I am now, if I am going to do L4 workouts, I would probably need to anchor it at something closer to 55% of 2K at r18. Here's what that looks like.



I think these powers would work for me as long as I kept the stroke counts below 200

[MarkEg]

This is all fascinating stuff. But, despite all the science, if my 2K is 1:43.8 which it is, what should my steady state /endurance/ the stuff you can do every day- without- struggling- to- do- it- again- the- next- be done at? Currently it's in the realm of 2:03/2:05 over 10K++ at r20 but some have said that's too fast.

[gregsmith01748]

This is all fascinating stuff. But, despite all the science, if my 2K is 1:43.8 which it is, what should my steady state /endurance/ the stuff you can do every day- without- struggling- to- do- it- again- the- next- be done at? Currently it's in the realm of 2:03/2:05 over 10K++ at r20 but some have said that's too fast.

Sounds about right to me. Your 2K is at 313 watts. A half decent rule of thumb for picking a steady state pace is between 55% and 60% of 2K power. That's 172 to 186W (2:07 to 2:03). If you feel good after the sessions and are making progress with that pace, stick with it.

[MarkEg]

This is all fascinating stuff. But, despite all the science, if my 2K is 1:43.8 which it is, what should my steady state /endurance/ the stuff you can do every day- without- struggling- to- do- it- again- the- next- be done at? Currently it's in the realm of 2:03/2:05 over 10K++ at r20 but some have said that's too fast.

Sounds about right to me. Your 2K is at 313 watts. A half decent rule of thumb for picking a steady state pace is between 55% and 60% of 2K power. That's 172 to 186W (2:07 to 2:03). If you feel good after the sessions and are making progress with that pace, stick with it.

Thanks Greg -- progress is hard to gauge, simply because I so rarely test. But I certainly never feel anything but good after these SS sessions so it's probably about right!

[G-dub]

Sounds about right to me. Your 2K is at 313 watts. A half decent rule of thumb for picking a steady state pace is between 55% and 60% of 2K power. That's 172 to 186W (2:07 to 2:03). If you feel good after the sessions and are making progress with that pace, stick with it.

And isn't this really where it's at in the end? The IP plan has the border of UT1/2 at 60% 2k watts, which should provide the right buffer from an intensity standpoint unless we are not in good shape it seems. And the ability to do it day after day will tell whether that pace is right or too fast. If it's too easy...

[jackarabit]

If 60%2kW/70%HRR+RHR is too easy by the Borg PE scale, it's time to retest 2k.

[G-dub]

Sounds right to me, Jack.

[aussieluke]

This is all fascinating stuff. But, despite all the science, if my 2K is 1:43.8 which it is, what should my steady state /endurance/ the stuff you can do every day- without- struggling- to- do- it- again- the- next- be done at? Currently it's in the realm of 2:03/2:05 over 10K++ at r20 but some have said that's too fast.

Sounds about right to me. Your 2K is at 313 watts. A half decent rule of thumb for picking a steady state pace is between 55% and 60% of 2K power. That's 172 to 186W (2:07 to 2:03). If you feel good after the sessions and are making progress with that pace, stick with it.

This is what I did, though my 2k is 7:10, so 282w, 55% = 155w

Then rowed at that for a week or so monitoring hr. hr stayed low throughout so I upped to 160w, then a week later 165w which is about my limit - anymore and hr will start jumping well over 150 av

[Mike Caviston]

Since my name and training program have been mentioned a few times, I'm going to respond. I love to talk training and I'm pleased if anyone finds my work helpful. So while some will call me a dick, I have to complain about the incredible number of inaccuracies in this thread about my background and training and the Wolverine Plan. I'm not going to address them individually. You don't have to rely on poor memories or second- or third-hand accounts. I've written extensively on this forum about the WP and all aspects of performance related to rowing, including the nature of steady state and it's role in training. (The Wolverine Plan PDF is not the definitive description of the plan, but a reference for a specific team at a specific time.)

Just throwing a few things at the wall in case any of them stick:
-The WP is appropriate for all genders, ages, and weight classes.
-You don't have to be elite, but you do need to have a legitimate 2K first and you would ideally do at least 6 sessions a week (4 can work if you know what you are doing). "Legitimate" doesn't mean world class, it means representative of your current fitness - even if your fitness is poor.
-Level 4 is not supposed to be "easy", but it is doable and definitely sustainable for a whole season if you follow the prescribed formats. I've never tried to equate it to any other training band from any other training program.
-I have provided simple instructions for creating personalized L4 paces using Watts.
-I don't know why anyone would base training on heart rate ever, but don't try to use it to regulate L4 workouts.

I used to spend a lot of time and energy providing the science behind the training, but now I say take it or leave it. I know the answers to all the training questions I see asked repeatedly. I've been making it work for years. I reach my potential, I meet my goals, I perform well when it counts, I avoid injury, I adapt to a challenging and unpredictable schedule and training environment. I am still able to improve on past performances (except rowing). I race as often as I want, and I'm almost always competitive, not only with my peers but also those much younger than me. I've focused on rowing in the past, but for the last several years I've branched out into several other endurance sports as well (road racing, trail running, stair racing, obstacle racing, snowshoeing and kayaking are some). You can call me a dick or an arrogant a-hole, but I know what I'm talking about when it comes to training. For those interested in achieving their best performance, I encourage you to search out my work.

[BTW, I absolutely am not targeting any individual here, just making general observations. Apologies in advance if anyone feels personally offended.]

[aussieluke]

(The Wolverine Plan PDF is not the definitive description of the plan, but a reference for a specific team at a specific time.)

To avoid any further confusion, is there an actual definitive plan out there?