Realistic improvement in older athletes?

[Cyclingman1]

Lee, According to the link, I lean to the endurance side - no surprise there. I've known from the start that I need more power and speed. I'm working on it. Today is an 8 x 250m, 1:45 Rest workout. But fast endurance is ultimately going to get me where I want to go. I feel that 5K is a good workout, test for me. Pulling a hard 5K is not easy. It will give me staying power for 2K. I need to be at 1:45 for 5K (17:30). Hopefully, 1:40 for 2K will then be possible. I'll know in a few weeks if I'm on the right track.

Bill, would like to find such a person - really experienced rower. In the NE that would be possible. In Atlanta - far less so. I'm pretty much on my own. The persons at the top of my age group are, for the most part, veteran OTW rowers. I figure if I get past them, that is verification of doing something right. Course, not there yet. Regarding rowing plans. They remind me of cycling training plans - way too complicated and have way too many meters in them. Running plans, by way of contrast, are to me straightforward and pretty simple. My plan is to do short, sub-race-pace intervals of various lengths and fast, over-race-pace longer distances. As the times to complete those workouts come down, hopefully the mid distance 2K will come down automatically. I may be wrong, but I just do not feel that mega-meters is going to be necessary - at least for my 6:40 goal.

I actually have a longer range goal - around 6:30 for 2K. I suspect that I will need more of a transformation to get there, requiring at least 100,000m a week. The holder of 6 out of 10 world records for 60-69 also holds the 100,000m record. In other words, the guy is a rowing fool. His WR for 5K is 17:13.2 (1:43.3). I can see getting there, but only by devoting considerable time to rowing.

[xenotheolympian]

To me it is crystal clear that the aging clock can be slowed down, way down, with the right training plan.
The greatest errors committed for "aging" people who work out and look for greater fitness are: intensity that is too high, too little torque, too little mileage, unknown target heart rate, technique that does not utilize the major muscle groups which restricts range of motion and can lead to injury.

[Cayenne]

To me it is crystal clear that the aging clock can be slowed down, way down, with the right training plan...The greatest errors committed for "aging" people who work out and look for greater fitness are: ... too little torque...

If Xeno sees this, or if not, can someone else please, define & explan "torque" relating to C2 erg? Thank you !

[Cyclingman1]

Pretty strange post by xeno.... A lot of fairly significant statements/claims with no explanation.

"Too high of intensity, too little torque" - I believe that the reason older athletes slow down is due to the deterioration of high end capability. The only way to counter that is to do high intensity work. It does hurt. I have no idea what torque is either, but must have to do with getting the flywheel turning.

It seems rather unlikely that an accomplished rower would have technique that does not well use major muscle groups - rowing is not that complicated.

I have an issue with high mileage. It is relative to the distance being trained for. I'm wondering how far Usain Bolt runs?
I've used HRM for running and cycling, but found that I did just as well without. It is all about knowing your race pace and reading your body.

Far more detail is needed to explain the original comments.

[hjs]

Pretty strange post by xeno.... A lot of fairly significant statements/claims with no explanation.

"Too high of intensity, too little torque" - I believe that the reason older athletes slow down is due to the deterioration of high end capability. The only way to counter that is to do high intensity work. It does hurt. I have no idea what torque is either, but must have to do with getting the flywheel turning.

It seems rather unlikely that an accomplished rower would have technique that does not well use major muscle groups - rowing is not that complicated.

I have an issue with high mileage. It is relative to the distance being trained for. I'm wondering how far Usain Bolt runs?
I've used HRM for running and cycling, but found that I did just as well without. It is all about knowing your race pace and reading your body.

Far more detail is needed to explain the original comments.

Pay him and you get more That is the point of his post, he makes his living from coaching rowers/ ergers

[Bob S.]

I believe that the reason older athletes slow down is due to the deterioration of high end capability. The only way to counter that is to do high intensity work. It does hurt.

Another major factor is deterioration of the skeletal structure, i.e. degenerative arthritis. That introduces a lot of additional pain.

Bob S., member of the "D-generation."

[bepah]

Bob S., member of the "D-generation."

D minus generation???? That's barely passing!

[Bob S.]

Bob S., member of the "D-generation."

D minus generation???? That's barely passing!

Well, that does sort of sum it up. It occurred to me that the next step is "passing on."

Bob S.

P.S. As a side note, what inspired that Dee generation concept was my combination of degenerative arthritis and macular degeneration - among other things.

[Cyclingman1]

I have a few more comments.

I'm only 66, but I'm certain that those in their 40s and early 50s cannot really appreciate what is coming in terms of physical capability. And that is even for those who are very active. Since turning 55, I've averaged close to 5000 miles a year in road cycling, virtually all of it done at a brisk pace. Yet I hate to say, there has been decline. I simply cannot push like I did eleven years ago. When I say decline, I mean all aspects of that, including the points of Bob S.

I really have no way of knowing if Xeno has a handle on such decline. He would have to give concrete examples to convince me. On the other hand, I think that I have a clue about how to deal with performance as a +65 athlete. Contrary to most of what I see suggested, I think high mileage is counterproductive and intensity is necessary to counter the loss of power in older athletes. Again I have no idea where "torque" enters into this.

Admittedly, being quite new to rowing, I have no credentials. But I'm going to remedy that. If I can break the 65+ WR for 2K, then I will have some credibility. And I plan on doing that soon. I know that sounds very cocky. But really I'm just an athlete who still has a desire to maximize performance, which involvdes how to to do that. Stay tuned. Maybe I'll start charging for advice to those older than me.

[kayakr]

I've averaged close to 5000 miles a year in road cycling, virtually all of it done at a brisk pace

I'd imagine your "decline" compared to the average person in you age group (who may have obsese bmi and diabeties) is probably lower. Ask a median pick from your age group to hop on a bike and pedal 10 miles like they did as a kid and see what happens. So perhaps the comparison is not you to younger you.

[bepah]

I'd imagine your "decline" compared to the average person in you age group (who may have obsese bmi and diabeties) is probably lower. Ask a median pick from your age group to hop on a bike and pedal 10 miles like they did as a kid and see what happens. So perhaps the comparison is not you to younger you.

Is that a dig?

[jamesg]

I'd guess Xeno's "Intensity too high" idea is in fact work per stroke too high. He demonstrated this when he won Gold at the Atlanta Olympics, rating consistently higher than the other scullers in the Final. He was about two lengths down halfway, but then won with clear water. Clearly to do something like that, against others who were already Golds, means quite a number of things, but not that the others were no good at sculling.

I wonder if his technique and training ideas have since then been put into practice, and what results they've brought.

He once suggested here, what to do in the two months before a 2k race. Presumably he'd done it himself. There were 35 workouts of over 80 minutes in his 2-month schedule. NB, water is harder than air.

[KevJGK]

I have a few more comments.

I'm only 66, but I'm certain that those in their 40s and early 50s cannot really appreciate what is coming in terms of physical capability.

I can understand exactly what you're saying.

I trained my socks off a couple of years ago just to get a sub 7 aged 51 and I've only ticked over since then.

I'm starting to ramp it up again now targeting a lightweight 06:50 next year - did 50k + last week - but it seems so much harder.

I guess it's going to be really tough to get 10 seconds faster - 4 years later - being 25 pounds lighter.

But I read somewhere "The journey is the reward" so we win either way.

[Cyclingman1]

To last poster: You did not say where you are starting from this time in terms of current 2K time. I would say that 10 s. is a big improvement from a time achieved after much training. Somehow you'll have to improve on that effort at 2 years older. First, you have to get back to where you were. Nice web site.

I'm facing similar numbers in terms of improvement. I need 10 s. I'm working hard to find them.

I do agree with Xeno when he says that senior decline can be reduced, although I think a high level of past fitness may be a positive factor. I am living proof that decline will happen regardless of starting point.

[Nosmo]

I'm pretty sure that Xeno means that people train at too high intensity on a daily basis so they can not recover from day to day. It is not that their most intense workouts are too hard--probably they are not hard enough because of lack of recovery. The idea is that the easy workouts are not easy enough so the hard workouts are not hard enough.

Cycleman--your 6:42 is really impressive. Didn't think you get that fast so quickly. That WR will come very soon. l think your improvement is really coming from specificity--you are adapting to rowing. Unless you have had someone very good looking at you, I would expect that you could pick up a few seconds with technical improvements. If you don't have a good coach, get some video and post it here (or on rowing illustrated), or send it to Xeno or someone other good coach.

I really disagree that this shows that long workouts are not needed. It shows that you are fit and have natural talent. The research shows that longer workouts are necessary for long term improvement. You can do very well for a couple of years with low mileage but will plateau. Both endurance and intensity are needed.