Trouble with torso movement. Video critique.

[markinnb]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d5JNiwFXas

this is a video of the veterans mens 2015 Crash B's. Dreissigacker P is there. he has the mantis approach as well.
he has a style of rowing that I want- he makes it look rather easy and he's got good technique.. other than this mantis hand thing.
his time is 6:58.7 or thereabouts.
maybe the little bit of extra distance is worth it.

[Alissa]

"Here's" a "stroke cycle" of Xeno Muller on the erg--take a look at how flat his wrists/forearms are.

This strokecycle is composed of 47 separate images which you can scroll through to see whatever details you'd like. (It looks like the latest iteration posted by the Inverness Rowing Club has stretched the image a little from side to side, but that doesn't change the usefulness of the cycle--and I'm extremely glad they reposted it!). If you have a keyboard, click one of the arrows on the side of the image (to engage the cycle), then use your arrow keys. If you hold a key down, you'll move through the images at speed. If you click an arrow once, you'll advance to the next image. You can identify the images by number if you want to discuss with someone. For example, the catch is at 33 and the finish is at 6.

BTW, has everyone else noticed how you can slow down a youtube video to 25% speed? It makes it much easier to see what's happening... (I just managed to find that a couple of weeks ago )

Back later,

Alissa

[jackarabit]

Yes to the utube slomo. Not readily apparent without--wait for it--a utube tutiorial but it definitely helps. Other problems remain. A lot of the old Crash-B footage has a quality equivalent to that of ancient kinescope recording.

[Bob S.]

"Here's" a "stroke cycle" of Xeno Muller on the erg--take a look at how flat his wrists/forearms are.

Another interesting item that can be gleaned from that site is that his drive time, 0.69 seconds, is identical at 39spm on the erg and 22spm on the water. Yet another is that his hands drop considerably after passing his knees on the recovery, on the erg that is. In the other video, on the water, he keeps them strictly on the table, i.e. no up and down movement other than getting the blades in and out of the water at the start and finish of the drive.

[Bob S.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d5JNiwFXas

this is a video of the veterans mens 2015 Crash B's. Dreissigacker P is there. he has the mantis approach as well.

Another minor variant is a bit of roller-coaster hands going other his knees on the recovery. Surprising to see that when he has had many years of OTW rowing and has been using the indoor rowers since he and his brother invented them.

There are also some instruction videos available on the C2 website done by him, especially the demonstration of getting a lot out of the power curve. That one is a real help in sorting out the legs/back/arms sequence.

[Alissa]

"Here's" a "stroke cycle" of Xeno Muller on the erg--take a look at how flat his wrists/forearms are.

Another interesting item that can be gleaned from that site is that his drive time, 0.69 seconds, is identical at 39spm on the erg and 22spm on the water. Yet another is that his hands drop considerably after passing his knees on the recovery, on the erg that is. In the other video, on the water, he keeps them strictly on the table, i.e. no up and down movement other than getting the blades in and out of the water at the start and finish of the drive.

Another thing you can see from the on the Water version is how stable his torso is. Look at the stripe down the side of his AIO. Notice how he establishes the angle of the torso (by swinging forward) shortly after the finish), and it stays the same all the way through the remainder of the recovery, the catch and most of the drive, until he swings back as he again approaches the finish. Notice also where the pivot point is (where the two portions of the white stripe intersect)--essentially where his thigh inserts into his hip.

Alissa

[hjs]

Pound for pound proberly the best erger ever. Shows that erging is very much fitness and certainly not an "optimal" technique. Digging deep like he does, look how relative fresh he still is at the finish.
What I do see, short strokes, both at the catch and at the end, lots of back movement, early usebof the arms and certainly no last snap of the arms. The legs, back and rapid change of direction (superbe fitness) bring the energy.

Quoted for truth, but wanted to add a little. These are all out feats of strength and endurance. Who ever gets there first wins. Period. Good form has no place here, only power development.

Could you imaging that form and level of effort in a boat? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DKvpgaf9wQ

Can,t open this vid?

[hjs]

Thanks all. There is a lot of discussion about hands. I got the side shot video that folks said I should. The video is taken at the last set of a 7-6-5-4-3-2-1 minute ladder with the last set being the highest spm and lowest split of a progression. 32spm and 1:34/500m split. [VIDEO: https://youtu.be/fQY9mzCdLpc]

I notice my hands are doing the "mantis" and I am gripping the handle quite tight. I see that quite a bit though when I look at top folks on Youtube such a the USMNT. Pretty much all of them "roll their hands under". [VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwqd13jS5FY]

I also watched some top performances from last year's crash B's (Fournier and Bach) and their wrists were much flatter. [VIDEO: BACH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QygNkyToQE]

I'll have to focus on finishing with upper back rather than biceps, I think, in order to flattern forearms.

Don,t think you should look at these examples. Fast yes, but not good technique, brute force. Very high drag, the second clip, slow drive and very hasty recovery.

For yourself, knees overshooting here and you bend you back, but not enough from the hips, those seem to be tight, the hips should tilt over at the catch, that is the strongest position and will make it easy to get your back forward.

But all in all, pure fitness is number one. On the erg any technique that gets the energy in the flywheel would work.

[Romper]

.... Take a broom handle and hold it behind you touching your head, upper spine and tail bone. Lock your knees and bend at the hips maintaining all three contact points on the broom handle. Two weeks ago I could barely make it to 45deg. Today Im almost 90 and it is far easier to row with "more" proper form....

Hi Tim.

I jut tried this, but when I bend at the hips, the broom handle comes off the tail bone and so not able to to maintain 3 points of contact. Do you experience this or are you able to maintain tail bone contact all the way down?

How wide do you have your feet stance?


Romper

[Tim K.]

Hey Romper,

If its coming off the tail bone you are bending your back. I can stick my head between my shins but can barely make it to 90* if I maintain all three contact points. Getting your head as low as possible isnt the point of the stretch, feeling it in your hamstrings is. Knees locked, three points of contact. Only point that can move is your hips.

[Romper]

Thanks Tim.

When you do these exercises, do you have you tail bone touching the broomstick all the way down (as far as you can)?

How wide is your feet stance?


Romper

[Tim K.]

Directly under your hips, feet parallel. I dont so much use these as a stretch, just a gauge of hamstring flexibility as it is impossible to cheat.

[Romper]

Thanks Tim,

So, you can rotate your hips and keep your back straight enough so that the broomstick is touching your tail bone?


Romper

[Tim K.]

He has broken his knees which increases the distance you can bend forward and is a variable you can cheat with. As a measuring stick, keep them locked. Also, I find putting the lower hand below your tail bone and upper hand above your head more comfortable.

[Romper]

Directly under your hips, feet parallel. I dont so much use these as a stretch, just a gauge of hamstring flexibility as it is impossible to cheat.

Thanks Tim.

What exercises do you employ to stretch your hamstrings?

Romper