Rojabo Training

[NavigationHazard]

Here's an exchange from the US Indoor Rowing Team Development Forum, back in 2006:

Me:

On the self-deprecation front:

I ‘bonked’ this morning while having a go at one of the workouts suggested by Larry Gluckman. Since the reasons for the ‘bonk’ may be mildly instructive, I don’t mind making an example of myself….

I had in mind an “Anaerobic Threshold Development” interval workout described as:

• 15 x 1:40 work with 20 sec. rest at 24-26 after piece 8 paddle through a work/rest period and then complete the last 7 intervals.

Since I tend to prefer distance to time for intervals longer than 1’, I translated this into

• 8 x 500m r24, 20” rest; 1’ paddle; 7 x 500m r24, 20” rest. Target pace: 1:40.

I set it up on ErgMonitor and yanked away. Here’s what happened.

Results:

01] 1:40.1 pace 349.1 aw 619.2 pw FR 65.2% 24.6 spm 14.2 spi 12.2 mps DF 129.0 DL 140.9 cm D/R 1:2.5
02] 1:40.4 pace 345.7 aw 605.1 pw FR 66.6% 24.5 spm 14.1 spi 12.2 mps DF 129.8 DL 145.6 cm D/R 1:2.4
03] 1:40.3 pace 347.4 aw 589.8 pw FR 67.2% 24.5 spm 14.2 spi 12.2 mps DF 128.9 DL 147.2 cm D/R 1:2.4
04] 1:40.3 pace 346.9 aw 595.6 pw FR 67.1% 23.9 spm 14.5 spi 12.5 mps DF 129.3 DL 148.0 cm D/R 1:2.5
05] 1:40.7 pace 343.0 aw 599.7 pw FR 66.5% 23.8 spm 14.4 spi 12.5 mps DF 129.1 DL 148.8 cm D/R 1:2.4
06] 1:40.1 pace 348.6 aw 606.5 pw FR 66.8% 24.0 spm 14.5 spi 12.5 mps DF 129.5 DL 148.2 cm D/R 1:2.4
07] 1:40.3 pace 346.5 aw 626.6 pw FR 66.6% 23.9 spm 14.5 spi 12.5 mps DF 129.5 DL 148.4 cm D/R 1:2.4
08] 1:39.7 pace 352.7 aw 638.0 pw FR 65.9% 24.1 spm 14.7 spi 12.5 mps DF 129.5 DL 150.1 cm D/R 1:2.4
Average: 1:40.2 pace 347.5 aw 610.1 pw FR 66.5% 24.2 spm 14.4 spi 12.4 mps DF 129.3 DL 147.1 cm D/R 1:2.4

1' active rest: 213.6 m, 2:20.4 pace 126.4 aw 235.0 pw FR 66.3% 19.0 spm 6.7 spi 11.2 mps DF 127.3 DL 135.2 cm D/R 1:2.4

09] 1:40.9 pace 341.3 aw 595.8 pw FR 66.5% 24.4 spm 14.0 spi 12.2 mps DF 129.0 DL 147.6 cm D/R 1:2.4
10] 1:42.0 pace 329.9 aw 636.0 pw FR 66.9% 24.1 spm 13.7 spi 12.2 mps DF 129.0 DL 147.4 cm D/R 1:2.3
11] 1:41.9 pace 331.1 aw 590.8 pw FR 67.0% 24.1 spm 13.7 spi 12.2 mps DF 128.9 DL 146.6 cm D/R 1:2.4
Average: 1:41.6 pace 334.1 aw 607.5 pw FR 66.8% 24.2 spm 13.8 spi 12.2 mps DF 129.0 DL 147.2 cm D/R 1:2.4

Rigor mortis (heat cramp in arch of left foot)

Overall Average for work intervals (11 x 500m):

1:40.6 pace, 343.8 average watts, 609.4 peak watts
Force Ratio (average handle force as % of peak force) 66.6%
24.2 strokes per minute, 14.2 stroke power index, 12.3 meters per stroke
Drag Factor 129.2, Drive Length 147.2 cm, Drive/Recovery Ratio 1:2.4

To tell the truth, I was inwardly a bit glad for the foot cramp – I’m not sure how long I could have continued at that pace/rate. Maybe another 1 or 2 intervals but not, I think, the remaining 4.

Larry, the experience raises a number of questions that you may be able to clarify.

a) How important are rate and/or pace consistency? Apart from the cramp, I probably could have finished the last set of 7 intervals at 1:42 (or less) by upping the rate to 26 spm. But this would have been rather different than the race/pate I’d established for the first 8….
b) Can this really be done at 5k race pace and r24? It seems quite heroic to me, considering that the total work distance at 1:40 pace (7500m) is half again longer than a 5k that I would race at somewhere around 30 spm. I’m not at all convinced that the rest intervals compensate for the lowered stroke rating. But I’m quite willing to believe that it can be done at the pace I’d do a rate-restricted, 24 spm 5k at. Alternatively, I can see accomplishing it at 28-30 spm….
c) There’s little doubt my cramp was related to the heat/humidity in my erg room. To keep this sort of thing from happening, what concessions – if any – should we make to a workout as well as during a workout? Should we adjust target paces and or ratings? Should we lengthen rest intervals and/or cut the number of reps?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts….


Response from coach Larry Gluckman, now running the Craftsbury Small Boat training center (coaching US rowers the Graves brothers, among others):

Dear NavigationHazard,

Thanks for your post. What is your 5k pace? What stroke rate do you normally row a 5k piece? You raise great questions.

We need to understand that the range we provide team members in pace and stroke rate has to be adjusted for your own rowing style and rhythm. There is a level of exploration in all these workouts.

In addition we need to try the range I suggested (+/-1-2 sec). If 1:40 is your 5k pace then maybe 1:42 at 26 is more doable at this point in your preparation. Given the environment you suggested may be a longer break between pieces #8 and 9 is required to hydrate.

Your questions raise a bigger issue and that is should the team members adjust and modifty workouts as they see fit? The answer is a huge YES. If a coach was watching the workout she/he might have added more rest between sets or even increased the rest between intervals to accomplish the work portion of the workout given your physical response to the workout.

The training environment is also an important factor in successful workout completion. May be adding a fan or a wet towel to cool the head or wetting your socks to keep the feet cool might be considerations for the next workout of this nature.

Finally, Linda and I are learning how to work within a cyber-training room. I might change that workout slightly by indicating 12-15 repeats and taking 1-2 full intervals of work and rest at the mid-point. If that was the case you might have completed 6, rested and completed 6 more and you would have avoided the foot cramp and the bonk. Then the next time you tried this workout you could have done 13( 7-6) and so on.

We are all learning so thanks for your questions.

Larry

Reading between the lines: there may not be a single 'correct' answer to your question. IMO Larry's spot on re environmental factors (ambient temperature and humidity; the presence of coaches, fit people of the opposite sex wearing spandex; hydration; time to and contents of the previous meal; etc.). And I completely agree with his point about tailoring any adjustments to where the workout fits in your current training program. It makes perfect sense (to me) to go with more rest if you're attempting to accentuate quality, and less rest if you're attempting to accentuate quantity/endurance, and to back off from rate prescriptions if necessary to maintain target paces....

[sander]

I subscribe to what NavigationHazard writes in the previous post.

The nice thing of the Rojabo program is that I "discovered" pace/rate combinations that I do not naturally do on the erg. It also makes me train a bit harder than I used to. On that last interval I should have lowered the frequency to 29spm, I think, in stead of going up and down the slide like crazy.

I did the training an hour after lunch. I should have waited a bit longer, perhaps. My basement doesn't have "fit people of the opposite sex wearing spandex", unfortunately. The only inspirational thing there are a set of riggers.

If I would design my own training program, I would have probably done more endurance work, and at lower intensities. On the other hand, the rojabo program might bring better results, and it feels right after a week or so of getting used to it. I will do a 2km test this Friday and will participate in regular, monthly 6k erg testing at our rowing club, so I'll be able to monitor progress.

On the water, I have no feedback if I am hitting the targets or not. I only have my heart rate monitor and stroke coach. However, it might be better than the erg. On the water, I might have already reduced the intensity a bit on the third interval, knowing that a fourth one was to come, where on the erg I slavishly tried to follow prescribed power.

When I was in serious training for OTW rowing, in the early nineties, the only instructions we had was a a time and a target intensity expressed as 70% - 80% - 90% - 100% - 110%, referring to a 100% as a 2k pace. This approach automatically compensated for temperature/fitness/presence of opposite sex.

[sander]

Let's get back to the topic of this thread: Rojabo training programs.

Here's my ideal world:

(1) Based on tests, trainer or website predicts your potential and current 2k time. Also, test establishes athlete's weaknesses.
(2) Athlete and trainer set a goal to achieve, say 20 sec faster on 2k erg in 8 months. Or: 5 sec faster on 1k OTW in the single (no wind). Goal should be at the same time realistic and inspiring.
(3) A program for next season is established with primary event and secondary events
(4) Trainer sets milestones, say 2k times and 6k times at 1 month intervals. (With ranges to account for natural variations.) For example: On 1 December, you will row a 2k around 7:05, certainly not slower than 7:10.
(5) Trainer lays out training program based on his experience, his knowledge of the athlete's abilities and constraints, and his best knowledge of sport science. Athlete follows it.
(6) Regular tests reveal if athlete is on track. Goals are regularly adjusted if athlete is making more or less progress than expected.

Let's see how rojabo scores on this:
(1) There are two tests, which are the minimum. It might have been nice to add heart rate to the measured parameters. It would also be nice if rojabo gave some feedback on where it thinks your strengths and weaknesses are. See the discussions on differences between my test results and Paul's.

(2) Rojabo does not ask for a "goal". I guess it calculates your progress from the training frequency that you enter. Here's a graph from my rojabo plan:

chart_rojabo.png (6.48 KiB) Viewed 7095 times

So, on 20 January 2011 I will be around "500p" but I have no clue what it means. I have no idea if I will achieve my goal for next year (5sec faster OTW in the single on 1k) or maybe exceed it. Rojabo tells me my potential max is 7:00 for 2k. It doesn't tell me when I will achieve that goal.

(3) Rojabo does calculate a program based on primary and secondary events.

(4) No milestones are set. I guess the tests are done regularly but there is no feedback if the training program is going well or not.

(5) We can't expect that level of guidance from just those two tests. I think rojabo is pretty good in laying out a training program. The way it's coming along with me right now, I find it challenging but doable and it fits my constraints. However, it's a bit too early for me to draw final conclusions on this point.

(6) The tests are repeated regularly, so the rower can monitor how his rojabo index, actual max and potential max evolve over time. I guess one will always be chasing this potential max as fitness increases, and the actual max might serve as a good pace for 2k tests. However, the graph's lacking a bit of detail to see if I'm on track. It would be nice to see an "expected rojabo index" a day before the test, to see if fitness is really progressing as predicted by the graph.

Overall, I think rojabo is pretty good for an internet tool generating automatic training programs based on just a few inputs. Remember I am comparing to an ideal world. Perhaps I even want too much. Maybe most people are happy with "getting fitter" as a goal rather than some concrete, measurable improvement. Also, I guess the rojabo team chose for simplification and user-friendliness in order not to confuse people.

I think the idea is really great, to provide the average basement dry rower with an individual training program based on his current fitness, his goals, and his training frequency.

At this point in time, I am still enthusiastic about it. I am putting in higher paces at lower rates, and my heart rate at those paces has already reduced over the past two weeks. It's too early for me to say "it works", especially as I have long term goals, not short-term ones.

Customer service was very helpful when I had a problem with the paypal payment. FInally, I like Denmark, Danish culture and I am sympathetic to Danish rowing, so I have no problem paying for the program understanding the money goes to people who are enthusiast rowers/trainers in Denmark.

So, overall my evaluation is very positive at the moment. I'd love to hear other people's opinions. Did you try rojabo and did you like it? Are you are paying user and what are your experiences after a few months, after a year? Did you decide not to use it and why?

[sander]

Today's training was a 15min/4 + 8min at 20/22 spm. I did the 15min 2 secs slower than prescribed because I hadn't recovered entirely from yesterday's training and I have a slight cold. I did the 8 min at the target pace, because the 15 min felt really relaxed. I was also pleased with my heart rate staying really much lower than I had expected, in both intervals.

Switched the PM2 monitor view to show split time per stroke and total meters. I used to look at either average Watts or average splits. I like it better this way.

[sander]

Update on the Rojabo training plan.

I did a 2k test and finished in 7:10 not being completely exhausted. Nice progress (from 7:17) and it gives confidence that I can gradually improve to go under 7:00 sometime in the next months.

I am still struggling with some of the workouts but not every one.

I have interrupted the program for a long weekend because of a short vacation. Today I did a cross country run of 10k, two laps of 5k in with a 100m height difference between the highest and the lowest point of the lap. It nearly killed me. Back to the erg for me now.

[PaulG]

Update on the Rojabo training plan.

I did a 2k test and finished in 7:10 not being completely exhausted. Nice progress (from 7:17) snip

Dropping 10 seconds is fantatstic progress.

[sander]

Dropping 10 seconds is fantatstic progress.

Thanks! Today I did the power efficiency test after one month of Rojabo. I did the test blind (setting the monitor to Calories per hour which is a scale I never use). Compared to a month ago, I performed 8W lower on 20spm, within 5W for 22 and 24 spm, and about 10W higher at 26 and 28 spm. This has "improved" my Rojabo "potential max" to 6:43 (was 7:00). The actual max is unchanged at 7:07.

I'll do the "endurance test" tomorrow, to see how I really improved my scores. 6:43 seems too fast to be me ...
But I do hope to go under 7:00 sometime in the next few months.

[sander]

I did the test after a month.

Before:
370 rojabo points
Actual max 7:07
Potential max 7:00

After
291 points
Actual max 6:59
Potential max 6:43

My "rojabo meter" shows that my fitness has actually decreased. I don't agree with that, and rojabo seems to be in contradiction, looking at "actual max" which has improved. Perhaps the right conclusion is that my fitness has not increased significantly and I was slightly less tough this morning when I did the test, compared to last time.

My training load seems to have decreased slightly. Perhaps this is a good thing, because, as I indicated I occasionally have trouble maintaining the prescribed Watts.

[NavigationHazard]

By way of a check on your latest test results, you can go to the "no tests required" page and plug in a recent trial piece (e.g. your 2k). Look under rojabo.com/about for the link. Enter the distance, time and stroke rate and the script will calculate both power-efficiency watt targets and an endurance-test result on that basis. You can then compare the numbers to your actual power-efficiency and endurance test results.

Don't assume automatically that because you didn't last as long on the latest endurance test, your fitness has declined. If you were using new watt targets from an improved power-efficiency test, your fitness almost certainly has improved.

I just recalibrated mine, and checked my results by also plugging in my BIRC 2k result. The BIRC result wasn't quite as robust as the two tests, suggesting that I somewhat underperformed at the venue as compared to my apartment.... In my defense I was thoroughly jetlagged at BIRC.

[sander]

I tried that and the predicted power efficiency test data fit quite well (about 5 watts lower when doing the cheating test).

For the endurance test, it gives 24spm, time remaining 2:09 so I actually performed better on the test I did this morning which I ended at 24spm, 25 seconds left, at slightly higher watts.

Looking at my 2k tests I am continuously improving my fitness during this year. For example, one of the rojabo trainings I did recently was 8m/3+8m/4+4m in 24/26/28 spm. The first 8m was already at a speed which would have been my PB speed for 2k 6 months ago. I am happy that I can now do that for 8 minutes, followed by a slightly faster 8 min just 3 minutes of active rest later.

I'll stick with the "real" test results and follow their recommended training. It seems to emphasize endurance a bit more than in the past month, and I like that.

I'm tempted to do a sub 7 minutes attempt at the 2k, but I think it is wiser to keep training than to keep testing ...

[bgutting]

I discovered Rojabo.com and it looks pretty awesome, quite honestly. I was curious about a couple things:

1) When it asks you to select a level (no training, rec athlete, athlete, elite), how exactly should you answer that? "No training" is obvious. I suspect many athletes think they're elite, and many recreational athletes think they're a step above what they are. Was wondering about guidelines here.

2) Training volume. Theoretically, you have the option to do something everyday and it will generate a program for you--and throw in a number of sessions of minimal pressure work to avoid over-training. For a lightweight with a 6:43 2K and a pretty open/flexible schedule, what might an optimum number of training days be? I realize that to some degree one must simply "find what works," but I was curious what had worked for others here.

3) Strength training in addition to this? I'm hesitant about just erging, but my reluctance may be unwarranted.

[sander]

I discovered Rojabo.com and it looks pretty awesome, quite honestly. I was curious about a couple things:

1) When it asks you to select a level (no training, rec athlete, athlete, elite), how exactly should you answer that? "No training" is obvious. I suspect many athletes think they're elite, and many recreational athletes think they're a step above what they are. Was wondering about guidelines here.

I chose athlete but I am not sure if my choice is right. Perhaps I am more of a "rec athlete". I consider "elite" to be the guys performing in World Cups and World Championships. I have no definitions, but I played with it and I noticed that the higher you select, the tougher the workouts get.

2) Training volume. Theoretically, you have the option to do something everyday and it will generate a program for you--and throw in a number of sessions of minimal pressure work to avoid over-training. For a lightweight with a 6:43 2K and a pretty open/flexible schedule, what might an optimum number of training days be? I realize that to some degree one must simply "find what works," but I was curious what had worked for others here.

I chose 4 days because it is about the maximum I can achieve along with work and family. I get pretty tough trainings (at least for me) and I am not always able to maintain the prescribed paces. I guess if I would select 7 days, the individual trainings would be somewhat easier but I havent experimented with it. The site gives you the number of "points" per week, so you could experiment and see if the number of points vary. Also, the expected progress is an indicator.

3) Strength training in addition to this? I'm hesitant about just erging, but my reluctance may be unwarranted.

[/quote]

I have the same question here. I have signed up for a cross country skiing event so I need to do some running and - as soon as we have some snow - cross country as preparation. Also, my rowing club organizes a strength training each Thursday. So, should I reduce some of the rojabo to accomodate the other training, or do them on top of it?

[NavigationHazard]

IMO a lot depends on what you're doing besides Rojabo, and on when you're doing it. I had a fairly tough scheduled workout today: 2 x 15' r22/4, theoretically 510p. For scheduling reasons I had to erg in the morning, about 1 hour after I'd done 30' on a static bike at 24 mph, with resistance. Ouch and ouch and ouch. In no way did I allow myself sufficient rest time after the bike session. The rowing was a struggle as a result (I ended up doing 5' r22 on both with the remainder r20).

I would answer that everything depends on your ability to rest sufficiently between workouts. And I would add that quick recovery is a young man's asset and an older athlete's dream.....

[rayg1]

A few questions about Rojabo:

Is this program really possible for a beginner? I started rowing in Septermber 2010 and the workouts here seem VERY difficult. I am looking for something "more" in my training but I highly doubt my fitness is there.

My main concern is to get involved in this and not being able to keep up and thus have the training work against me rather than help my fitness and times.

I've recieved earlier advice just to work on my endurance and my overall strength for a begineer seems to be ok.

Just a few suggestions would be appreciated.

For reference here are my stats/times:

25 year old male, 6'0", 195

500m: 1:36.6
2000m: 7:24.0
5000m: 19:03.1
30 min: 7,633 meters

[NavigationHazard]

Do the tests and the workouts ought to be configured automatically for your current capabilities and also your stated goal(s). To the extent they are, you shouldn't have an issue with "too difficult." There's a free 30-day trial -- nothing's stopping you from having a go and seeing whether you're suited temperamentally for the program.