Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

[slwiser]

Most of you guys start from a position of strength and experience; for myself, I started last June on the Concept 2 from being almost an invalid back in May 08 when I started Cardio Rehab. Before my surgery (4 way heart by-pass) I had a very long period of slow degeneration from 2002 to 2007 when at the end of this period I could hardly walk a 100 feet without getting out of breath. During that long period my cartilage, muscles and tendons got used to doing nothing and the cells were built for those light loads.

It is going to take me at least three years from the beginning of rehad, I would guess, to get to a point where my tendons and cartilage are equal to my muscle power so that I will not pull something out of attempting to be explosive. I will be essentially starting my second year as a Concept 2 rower in June 2010. Therefore, my training needs to be built around this slow process of cellular replacement or regeneration. This past year when attempting sprints I have seen that I can over power certain parts that I still need to nurse a little. This coming year is another building year for me to get to a genetic limit I hope. For you guys you are moving toward that from a position of strength or at least cellular strength. For myself I am moving toward that from a position of weakness or at least extreme weakness just based on my cellular makeup from a long period of inactivity.

My training is therefore quite different from those being posted I would think. These are just my musings as such as they are.

[ausrwr]

Well, keep us all posted. It sounds like an interesting adaptation issue!

When you talk about not wanting to do too much out of fear that you might pull something - to what extent does this apply? Do day to day issues of mobility / lifting things compromise this? I'd imagine (not out of any knowledge, just conjecture) that the principles of overload and recovery apply.

I'd be interested in knowing how you've gone from the point of such an adaptation to where you are now, and what your rehab and strengthening process involves. Are you able to lift weights / do heavy tens on the ergo, that sort of thing?

In theory at least, you are going to get overload and muscle strength gains from working on the C2 in any case, just by increasing the drag. And the cardiac adaptation's going to come from just rowing the thing.

I must confess a personal thing in this - I'm trying to eventually get my father on a C@, as he's had a pretty rough trot with cardiac arrhythmia, polycthemia and a knee replacement in the last few years! Hence, I'd like him to start something like that.

[slwiser]

If you want to see my progress from before I actually started on the Concept 2 you can check out my exercise journal by using the link in my Sig below. And just for this discussion is an image of my PB(SB) for season 2010:


Edit: Note that the 3:31.4 should have been 3:41.4 for the 1k distance.

I also managed to to 301 meters for one minute for a CTC challenge . That hurt in the knees some. There have been other issues that I seem to notice following sprints as well that may be associated with the heart by-pass but this I really can't say for sure. My doctors say there are no reasons except within my own personal limitations (what I experience on a session by session basis) to ease off anything from their perspectives such as limiting intensity.

[ausrwr]

Cheers Steve - I've just been running through that thread - it's a truly impressive progression you've made.
I do notice that in your final post you talk about trying to work out more consistently - not taking a day off here and there.

While I do tend to agree with the sentiment, you are giving it large pretty often - the body does need to recover every so often! Perhaps scheduling a regular day off, even it it's just to sit down with friends over a coffee, would be something worth considering?

I'll add your thread to my things to watch - very, very interesting.

[TomR]

I was starting to think that my twice a week weight training was perhaps doing more harm than good (to my rowing) despite having made some fairly good progress in it(my max dead lift is now 265!).
then
I happened to look at my 2009 total meters.. 2.4m , last year was 3.4m
so, think I found the real problem with my struggling performances.. just need to row a little more

I really enjoy the weights, I have a training partner at work, we go monday and friday.

That mirrors my experience.

So the question for you is, what's your goal? Do you enjoy the weight training enough to see some decline in erg performance?

I'm now trying a routine in which I've upped the rowing to previous meters and supplement it with circuits of light weights. I've cut back on the intervals, and so far recovery is ok. About once a week, I lift something moderately heavy, because that is what men do. I still pull a 300 lb dead.

[slwiser]

I am actually moving away from weights right now to do more recovery type rowing on days which would otherwise be rest days (no work). Recovery to me is doing something less than 70% HRR and for somewhere between 30-45 minutes. Some days I keep a lower pace than this depending on how I feel. My plan right now is to continue this till Aug or Sept then start up the PP again for about three months to see how my strength this season compares with last Nov when I did almost all my PBs. The purpose for this continued emphasis on rowing is to keep moving my weight down. If I again get to a place where that does not happen I may need to do something different to change what my body had gotten accustomed to such as weights again.

The requirement for rest days is very good advise for someone doing intensity training. This is not what I am doing at this time. I do a couple of days at Cardio Rehab some fairly aggressive rows for my present status but this is about has hard as I am doing right now.

[Byron Drachman]

--snip--recovery type rowing on days which would otherwise be rest days (no work). --snip

Me, too. If I am tired I feel better the next day if I do a light recovery workout rather than do nothing.
Byron (72. Yikes! How did that happen?)

[chgoss]

Most of you guys start from a position of strength and experience; for myself, I started last June on the Concept 2 from being almost an invalid back in May 08 when I started Cardio Rehab.
....
My training is therefore quite different from those being posted I would think. These are just my musings as such as they are.

WOW, awesome that you're fighting your way back good for you!

[chgoss]

I was starting to think that my twice a week weight training was perhaps doing more harm than good (to my rowing) despite having made some fairly good progress in it(my max dead lift is now 265!).
thenI happened to look at my 2009 total meters.. 2.4m , last year was 3.4m so, think I found the real problem with my struggling performances.. just need to row a little more I really enjoy the weights, I have a training partner at work, we go monday and friday.

That mirrors my experience. So the question for you is, what's your goal? Do you enjoy the weight training enough to see some decline in erg performance? I'm now trying a routine in which I've upped the rowing to previous meters and supplement it with circuits of light weights. I've cut back on the intervals, and so far recovery is ok. About once a week, I lift something moderately heavy, because that is what men do. I still pull a 300 lb dead.

Honestly, my main goal is just to stay active and interested in a fitness activity.
I LOVE RowPro just for that reason, people to row with.. I've lifted weights on and off my entire life, so I enjoy being (sort of) strong, but I hate just lifting for the sake of lifting so it needs to be linked to a sport. All I do is legs and back.

The only real performance goal I have in rowing, is to get in the top 10% of my age category for 2k, 5k, 10k. Last year I just squeaked in with a 5k, but couldnt on the other distances..
I would love to squat and DL 300lbs, no real reason, just sounds good but I dont really train enough to get there.

[jliddil]

Honestly, my main goal is just to stay active and interested in a fitness activity.
I LOVE RowPro just for that reason, people to row with.

I imagine for many people, including myself, this is important. Having watched my dad be overweight and such for most his life I did not want this for me. At the same time I was never a sports oriented person. Poor hand-eye coordination so I never much liked football, baseball etc. Running was the first thing I started doing I was a little better that average which I only started to do on a recreational basis in college. And ever since whether it running, biking etc. it is about energy and quality of life. Yes I have 'trained" but for the most part is has always been just work-out. Now with Rowpro I am following one of the plans. Having been a scientist all my life I have enough exactness and detail process and anal-retentiveness in my life. Exercise is more free-form for me other than as I say a day without exercise is like a day without sunshine. So I "must" exercise everyday, it's that anal-retentive, protestant work ethic thing.

And I think it can be intimidating for some to see the erging times (It was and is) of many who post here regularly. So we don't see so much of the average crowd. I think the same applies to the C2 rankings. it took me quite a while to even consider ranking something. But I've learned to accept being in the 50-25 percentile. But I think based on what I observe at the work gym I'm in better shape than a large part of the American population.

JD

[slwiser]

I've learned to accept being in the 50-25 percentile.
JD

I am there as well and enjoy being able to do what I am able to do.

[ausrwr]

It should always be thus. To a large degree, your speed is a genetic accident, the result of picking your parents well.
It's how you get there and what you do with it that's the important bit.

[Yankeerunner]

I was starting to think that my twice a week weight training was perhaps doing more harm than good (to my rowing) despite having made some fairly good progress in it(my max dead lift is now 265!).
then
I happened to look at my 2009 total meters.. 2.4m , last year was 3.4m
so, think I found the real problem with my struggling performances.. just need to row a little more

I really enjoy the weights, I have a training partner at work, we go monday and friday.

That mirrors my experience.

So the question for you is, what's your goal? Do you enjoy the weight training enough to see some decline in erg performance?

I'm now trying a routine in which I've upped the rowing to previous meters and supplement it with circuits of light weights. I've cut back on the intervals, and so far recovery is ok. About once a week, I lift something moderately heavy, because that is what men do. I still pull a 300 lb dead.

In that same vein, I've recently been able to increase my running miles and stayed active through the winter at that for the first time in over 12 years. As I've added more running the erging has suffered. Gary Passler tells me that we can't serve two mistresses.

Do I enjoy the running enough to see some decline in erg performance? Oh yeah. Absolutely! Running has been my favorite mistress for more than 46 years now. I'll keep erging as cross-training so that I can fall back on it if injuries take me back out of running. But for now the main goal is to go to the battle grounds in Marathon, Greece in October and run to Athens. This year is the 2500th anniversary of Pheidippides's fabled run, and I have wanted to follow those footsteps ever since I read the story back in 6th grade some 50 years ago. This is the year I'll do it.

[KevJGK]

But for now the main goal is to go to the battle grounds in Marathon, Greece in October and run to Athens.

Wow! That would be such a cool experience for somebody with your running history. I really hope you do it and would love to hear how it went.

The only real performance goal I have in rowing, is to get in the top 10% of my age category for 2k, 5k, 10k.

That sounds like a pretty admiral goal to me. After all that's the top 10% of people who are keen are enough to post their times which must be the very top few percentage of the overall population.

[TomR]

[quot Gary Passler tells me that we can't serve two mistresses.

. . . But for now the main goal is to go to the battle grounds in Marathon, Greece in October and run to Athens. This year is the 2500th anniversary of Pheidippides's fabled run, and I have wanted to follow those footsteps ever since I read the story back in 6th grade some 50 years ago. This is the year I'll do it.

I didn't realize Gary was a prude.

The marathon from Marathon is a slick idea. Don't emulate Pheidippides is all respects.