Ranger's training thread

[mikvan52]

No, your understanding is useless. As others have tried to tell you, repeatedly, "spi" is basically meaningless OTW as an index of "rowing well." It's mainly because ambient conditions -- wind, water, temperature -- affect grossly the rower input/boat speed relationship.*

Nav is right..

I see it simply as follows:

SPI is watts exerted/stroke rate (average for piece)

For the water there is no table that lists wattage in one column and pace/500 in the next(!)
Capiche?

Sure you can exert 300 watts on the sculling blades but the boat WILL NOT translate that into any one pace/500m each and every time 300 watts is exerted....

Subtract:
Displacement of the boat (design element; mass of crew element)
Inefficiencies (that everyone has in form)
Poor steering
(subtract) Wind resistance or (add) following wind...
Current (add or subtract speed) * if there is current
temperature of water (hulls move faster through warm water)

(there's more too)

Then rate can vary because of the load on the oar (length; design; inboard vs oarboard vs overlap) issues
Then there's "span".

Things on the erg are static and so dissimilar to the water... Leave SPI for the erg, Rich .... Or,, identically rigged boats of the same design with the same oars at the same load with very similar crews of the same age and stature....

IOW : You don't put a mule in a team of Clydesdales



Rich: "Nature abhors a vacuum"... ranger statements are (in the archaic sense) vacuous ...
What's the conclusion in this syllogism?

[NavigationHazard]

I see it simply as follows: SPI is watts exerted/stroke rate (average for piece)

No, actually it isn't. It's watts displayed (output)/stroke rate. Rower input is not the same as monitor output -- a small amount of power is lost to mechanical inefficiency (mainly flywheel friction); much much more is dissipated through biomechanical inefficiency. IIRC the calorie counter built into the PM assumes an average of something like 25% efficiency as far as unit of chemical energy expended by the rower versus displayed watts. That might or might not be the case (many people think it underestimates expended calories). But in any case that's just an assumption. In fact the monitor has no way of knowing how hard you're working to move the handle however much you're moving it. All it 'knows' is flywheel revolutions at the output end of the rower/erg system. And that's all it can ever know.

It's possible to construct an spi index for a racing shell. You could, if you wished, express boat speed in watts and then divide it by rating. But you'd have even more disconnect there between rower grunt (input) and hull speed (output) since the technical issues in a boat are more complex, plus ambient conditions will affect the results greatly.

[ranger]

Yea, if conditions are good, I can rate 28 spm for 3.8K at the Head of the Grand.

At the moment, OTW, I go 1:58 when I rate 28 spm.

15 pounds lighter, which is where I will be a five weeks from now, I'll be two seconds per 500m faster than that, just because I won't be dragging as much weight.

That's 1:56 @ 28 spm.

I'll build up to that slowly in the dozen or so practice runs that will make down the course in my trips to Lansing on each Monday from now until the event.

I'll do a lot of 4Ks on the erg at 28 spm, too, just to keep it going--one if by land _and_ two if by sea.

I should be able to build up, in a parallel way to 4K OTErg, 1:40 @ 28 spm.

The difference in pace between my OTErg and OTW rowing, then, will be 16 seconds per 500m (1:56 vs. 1:40).

ranger

[ranger]

Things on the erg are static and so dissimilar to the water

Sorry, MIke, but I don't agree.

I now find them exactly the same.

I am doing both, every day, back to back.

Today: 60min OTErg, 90min OTBike, 60min OTW

Lovin' this routine.

ranger

[whp4]

Things on the erg are static and so dissimilar to the water

Sorry, MIke, but I don't agree.

I now find them exactly the same.

There's a reason for that, as you've repeatedly demonstrated in your videos of your OTE and OTW form: you're doing it wrong

If you rowed on salt water, you would have a pod of these splashing around with you:

[mikvan52]

Things on the erg are static and so dissimilar to the water

Sorry, MIke, but I don't agree.

I now find them exactly the same.

Responses like this one from ranger are what make me think that he's either a [Bot] or a Hal (entity) (from the movie 2001- A Space Odyssey)



"...sorry, Dave, I can't do that"


ranger: Open your mind (or your pod bay doors) and let it some sense.
The erg is not a boat. This is why you'll be unable to match your peers OTW with equal prowess to what you are able to do on the erg.
The erg does not move... it is (repeat after me) a rowing S.I.M.U.L.A.T.O.R. & a fitness machine... quite an excellent one...

Your grade for today: D-... Please stay after school for extra study...

[mikvan52]

Things on the erg are static and so dissimilar to the water

Today: 60min OTErg, 90min OTBike, 60min OTW

no distances with time means spi of zero...

[ranger]

There's a reason for that, as you've repeatedly demonstrated in your videos

I now relax my hands and shoulders at the catch, rather than clutching and pulling.

The boat doesn't bounce.

I drive straight back with my legs before I swing my back and pull with my arms.

At low drag (118 df.) OTErg, I do the same.

My catches, both OTW and OTErg, are now _very_ good.

ranger

[ranger]

Post removed due to incorrect attribution of quote.

[ranger]

no distances with time means spi of zero

SPI aside, I'll be delighted with 1:56 @ 28 spm for 4K OTW and 1:40 @ 28 spm for 4K OTErg.

Wouldn't you?

It looks as though that's where I am headed.

If I can do 1:40 @ 28 spm OTErg for 5K as a lightweight when I am 60, it will be a WR by five seconds per 500m.

It will be three seconds per 500m better than the 60s _heavyweight_ 5K WR.

Closer to home, if I do 1:40 @ 28 spm OTErg for 5K over the next couple of months, it will be a 50s lwt WR (outdoing the mythical Freed, when he was in his early 50s) and will predict 6:20 2K for BIRC.

16:40 for 5K would be over 10 seconds per 500m (a minute and forty-five seconds) faster than any 60s lwt 5K last year:

RANKING RESULTS 2010

Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 5000m | Men's | Lightweight | Ages 60-69 | 2010 Season

1 Henry Baker 62 Santa Barbara CA USA 18:25.7 RowPro
gregory brock 61 santa cruz ca USA 18:27.9 IND
2 Hugh Conway 60 St. Pats TOW Club Co. Armagh IRL 18:43.1 IND_V
3 Bob Lakin 61 Wichita KS USA 18:47.3 IND
4 Gerald Lawson 62 Winona MN USA 18:52.8 IND_V
5 Joe Keating 61 London IRL 18:55.5 C2Log
6 Kurt Blumberg 63 Boulder CO USA 18:56.0 IND
7 Rob Codling 61 Berkhamsted GBR 18:57.6 IND
8 Rob Drury 63 Maidstone Kent GBR 18:58.4 C2Log
9 Greg Hodge 63 Traverse City MI USA 18:59.4 IND_V
10 Brian Snead 63 westgate-on-sea Kent GBR 19:03.5 IND_V

ranger

[ranger]

BTW, OTW, I have also mastered quick hands away (together with a quick recovery of the back) at the finish.

In my stroke, I make a big "swing" with my back/core, but I am out of the bow in a flash.

The boat runs--like a dream.

Damn, my boat is fast!



ranger

[mikvan52]

no distances with time means spi of zero

SPI aside, I'll be delighted with 1:56 @ 28 spm for 4K OTW and 1:40 @ 28 spm for 4K OTErg.

Yes. Particularly, ineluctably, deliriously, delighted...
Especially if you cannot do 1k OTW at any rate at 1:56 pace.

Dream-on....

BTW: None of us are interested in "where (you are) headed" ... We want to know about now.

Still no word from you about posting a training time for your first 4k trial.... next week (stet)

Let's see... 8 x500m is 4k..
your 500m pace at 21 spm (?) 2:20 .. perhaps
8 x 2 1/3 minutes is 18:40.... with a howling tailwind blowing the "Windbag" down the course

[mikvan52]

I have also mastered quick hands away (together with a quick recovery of the back) at the finish.

I make a big "swing" with my back/core, but I am out of the bow in a flash.

The boat runs--like a dream.

Are you merely goading us with feigned ignorance?

The only thing that runs is your mouth.

[NavigationHazard]

The best OTW rowers are also the best ergers.

No they're not, as you've been told umpty times. I'll make it easy for you. Here are the current all-time best results in all of the senior FISA events:

Event/ Time
Country/ Rower(s)
Date/ Location

Men's Single Sculls (M1x)/ 6:33.35
New Zealand/ Mahe Drysdale
29 Aug 2009/ Poznan, POL

Men's Pair (M2-)/ 6:14.27
Great Britain/ James Cracknell, Matthew Pinsent
21 Sep 2002/ Seville, ESP

Men's Double Sculls (M2x)/ 6:03.25
France/ Jean-Baptiste Macquet, Adrien Hardy
17 Jun 2006/ Poznan, POL

Men's Four (M4-)/ 5:41.35
Germany/ Sebastian Thormann, Paul Dienstbach, Philipp Stüer, Bernd Heidicker
21 Sep 2002/ Seville, ESP

Men's Lightweight Double Sculls (LM2x)/ 6:10.02
Denmark/ Mads Rasmussen, Rasmus Quist
23 Jun 2007/ Amsterdam, NED

Men's Lightweight Four (LM4-)/ 5:45.60
Denmark/ Thomas Ebert, Thomas Poulsen, Eskild Ebbesen, Victor Feddersen
9 Jul 1999/ Lucerne, SUI

Men's Quadruple Sculls (M4x)/ 5:36.20
Australia/ Christopher Morgan, James McRae, Brendan Long, Daniela Noonan
10 Aug 2008/ Beijing, CHN

Men's Eight (M8+)/ 5:19.85
United States/ Jason Read, Wyatt Allen, Chris Ahrens, Joseph Hansen, Matthew Deakin, Dan Beery, Beau Hoopman, Bryan Volpenheim, Pete Cipollone
15 Aug 2004/ Athens, GRE

Men's Coxed Pair (M2+)/ 6:42.16
Croatia/ Igor Boraska, Tihomir Frankovic, Milan Razov
18 Sep 1994/ Indianapolis, USA

Men's Lightweight Single Sculls (LM1x)/ 6:47.82
Great Britain/ Zac Purchase
26 Aug 2006 Eton, GBR

Men's Lightweight Eight (LM8+)/ 5:30.24
Germany/ Klaus Altena, Christian Dahlke, Mike Kobor, Bernhard Stomporowski, Thomas Melges, Uwe März, Michael Buchheit, Kai von Warburg, Olaf Kaska
1992/ Montreal, CAN

Men's Coxed Four (M4+)/ 5:58.96
Germany/ Jörg Dederding, Armin Weyrauch, Bahne Rabe, Matthias Ungemach, Armin Eichholz
24 Aug 1991/ Vienna, AUT

Men's Lightweight Pair (LM2-)/ 6:26.61
Ireland/ Tony O'Connor, Neville Maxwell
1994/ Paris, FRA

Men's Lightweight Quadruple Sculls (LM4x)/ 5:45.18
Italy/ Michelangelo Crispi, Massimo Guglielmi, Francesco Esposito, Massimo Lana
1992/ Montreal, CAN

Women's Single Sculls (W1x)/ 7:07.71
Bulgaria/ Rumyana Neykova
21 Sep 2002/ Seville, ESP

Women's Pair (W2-)/ 6:53.80
Romania/ Georgeta Andrunache, Viorica Susanu
21 Sep 2002/ Seville, ESP

Women's Double Sculls (W2x)/ 6:38.78
New Zealand/ Georgina Evers-Swindell, Caroline Evers-Swindell
21 Sep 2002 Seville, ESP

Women's Four (W4-)/ 6:25.35
Australia/ Robyn Selby Smith, Jo Lutz, Amber Bradley, Kate Hornsey
26 Aug 2006 Eton, GBR

Women's Lightweight Double Sculls (LW2x)/ 6:49.77
China/ Dongxiang Xu, Shimin Yan
17 Jun 2006 Poznan, POL

Women's Quadruple Sculls (W4x)/ 6:10.80
Germany/ Kerstin Köppen, Kathrin Boron, Katrin Rutschow-Stomporowski, Jana Sorgers
19 May 1996 Duisburg, GER

Women's Eight (W8+)/ 5:55.50
United States/ Brett Sickler, Megan Cooke, Anna Goodale, Lindsay Shoop, Anna Mickelson, Susan Francia, Caroline Lind, Caryn Davies, Mary Whipple
27 Aug 2006 Eton, GBR

Women's Lightweight Single Sculls (LW1x)/ 7:28.15
Romania/ Constanta Pipota
19 June 1994 Paris, FRA

Women's Lightweight Pair (LW2-)/ 7:18.32
Australia/ Eliza Blair, Justine Joyce
7 Sep 1997 Aiguebelette-le-Lac, FRA

Women's Lightweight Quadruple Sculls (LW4x)/ 6:23.96
China/ Hua Yu, Haixia Chen, Xuefei Fan, Jing Liu
27 Aug 2006 Eton, GBR

I'm not 100% sure on the older records. However to the best of my knowledge there are precisely two current 2k erg record holders on the above list. One is Eskild Ebbesen (and I'm not sure whether he or Luini had the erg record in 1999, when Ebbesen got the OTW record). The other is Georgina Evers-Swindell. It is possible that others once upon a time may have held simultaneous OTW and OTE records (the most likely being Rob Waddell). And there are a few who hold non-2k erg records (e.g. Drysdale holds the 20-29 60' MHW record). But as a general proposition, the fastest OTW rowers are NOT the fastest ergers.

@mike: "I am out of the bow in a flash" contains two typos. It should read "I am out of the bowl like a flush"....

[whp4]

The erg is not a boat

The best OTW rowers are also the best ergers.

The best way to drive the erg is to use a good OTW stroke, that drives a boat.

You have made a leap of logic here and totally blown the landing. Ever looked at Siejkowski's record on the water? Fantastic on the erg (an example of a WR holder improving on the open record 4 years later), very undistinguished on the water.

We all know you think that because you turned in the fastest erg time in your minuscule age group bracket last year that this means you will be similarly successful on the water ("I was the best on the erg, the best ergers are the best OTW, therefore I'll be the best OTW"). As a naysayer who hasn't missed a prediction yet with you, I'm confident in my prediction that you are going to be uncompetitive, at best, for the many reasons demonstrated here. You don't know what you are doing, you don't even know that you don't know what you are doing, and you refuse to listen to those who do and try to help you.