The Two Types of Training

[ranger]

By the end of the summer, probably by the end of this month, my distance times will be in the range of seven seconds per 500m beyond yours.



ranger

Exactly. I'm thinking this month too. Is your HR riding steady at 170 now? I rode at 170 for 32 minutes the other day (OTB) but it will take a bit more training before I can hold 180 for that kind of time (again). Racing, for me, is still 3 weeks away. I can seem to dig a bit deeper under pressure.

Yes, I am now getting my HR up nicely, riding along at 170 bpm.

180 bpm is AT for me.

My anaerobic threshold is 172 bpm.

What is your resting HR?

I know I need to keep pushing my HR at my anaerobic threshold but I really don't think this will be any problem.

I have been doing that all my life.

With my work on technique (effectiveness and efficiency), my real accomplishment over the last few years is not getting my HR up but keeping it down:

I now row along, 1:48 @ 25 spm with my HR at 155 bpm.

I can do a FM with my HR at 155 bpm.

Five years ago I did 1:48 with my HR at my anaerobic threshold, 172 bpm.

ranger

[ranger]

I didn't start learning to row until 2004.
For instance, I didn't get in a boat until 2004.

I got my boat late in the summer of 2003 and therefore really didn't start doing anything substantial OTW in my 1x until 2004.

I did Learn To Row in an 8 with the Ann Arbor rowing club in the spring of 2003.

I did Learn To Scull for a few days with the club in the summer of 2003.


ranger

[ranger]

If I can nab that AT 2K, 1:37 @ 33 spm, before the end of the month, the gap between me and my competition on the erg will grow to 10 years.

Besides me, no lightweight older than 50 has ever pulled sub-6:30.

If I can pull sub-6:20 when I am fully trained, that gap will grow to 20 years.

No 40s lightweight has pulled sub-6:20 in decade or so, since Caviston set the 40s lwt WR down to 6:18.

ranger

[ranger]

I am now just putting it on 32 spm and rowing.

Day after day, K after K.

Beautifully relaxed stuff, 1:39 @ 32 spm.

There's that middle distance, "Head of the Charles" stroke (i.e., for 5K/6K).

At the end of the month, I'll raise the rate to 34 spm and do a 2K trial.

That should get me the AT, sub-6:30 2K I have been looking for.

ranger

[ranger]

A sub-6:30 2K would be the best 50s lwt 2K of the year.

Besides me, only two other 50s lwts have ever pulled sub-6:30, Graham Watt and Paul Siebach.

Since Graham and Paul are now over 50, they can no longer pull 6:30.

Age takes its toll.



ranger

[ausrwr]

Yes, I am now getting my HR up nicely, riding along at 170 bpm.

180 bpm is AT for me.

My anaerobic threshold is 172 bpm.

I thought I'd just better quote this gem for posterity.

Would you like to prove that you have no idea of what you're talking about once more, or is that sufficiently cretinous for you?

[whp4]

Since Graham and Paul are now over 50, they can no longer pull 6:30.

Age takes its toll.

Yes, you've demonstrated that quite vividly over the last several years. You can no longer break 6:40 much less 6:30. You say you are much better now, and maybe you are, in some inconsequential fashion, but you are still much slower. The truth machine does not lie when it shows you slower with each passing year, despite putting in 5-10x the training effort as your competition. Blather on as you will about "when I'm fully prepared" but the fact remains that you have proven unable to get yourself to this magical state, so claims of what you will do once you do are moot. If only you had listened to your brother or even your mother, you might not have squandered your talents on a disjointed scattershot training program that has apparently robbed you of your distance abilities while leaving you 12 seconds slower and prone to blowing up. Nice work, coach!

[ranger]

Blather on as you will about "when I'm fully prepared" but the fact remains that you have proven unable to get yourself to this magical state, so claims of what you will do once you do are moot.

Your impatience is needless.

I am in no hurry.

When done right, training takes time.

So far as good.

Everything is going as planned.

I am now doing middle distance rates and paces--1:39 @ 32 spm--right on my target.

This is the upper reaches of what I need for distance trials, so I should get in those trials by the end of the month.

Along with these distance trials, I will do a 2K @ 34 spm.

That should give me the sub-6:30, AT 2K I have been looking for.

Then I can sharpen.

I usually get about a dozen seconds over 2K from a couple of months of hard sharpening.

ranger

[mrfit]

By the end of the summer, probably by the end of this month, my distance times will be in the range of seven seconds per 500m beyond yours.
ranger

Exactly. I'm thinking this month too. Is your HR riding steady at 170 now? I rode at 170 for 32 minutes the other day (OTB) but it will take a bit more training before I can hold 180 for that kind of time (again). Racing, for me, is still 3 weeks away. I can seem to dig a bit deeper under pressure.

Yes, I am now getting my HR up nicely, riding along at 170 bpm.
180 bpm is AT for me.
My anaerobic threshold is 172 bpm.
What is your resting HR?
I know I need to keep pushing my HR at my anaerobic threshold but I really don't think this will be any problem.
I have been doing that all my life.
With my work on technique (effectiveness and efficiency), my real accomplishment over the last few years is not getting my HR up but keeping it down:
I now row along, 1:48 @ 25 spm with my HR at 155 bpm.
I can do a FM with my HR at 155 bpm.
Five years ago I did 1:48 with my HR at my anaerobic threshold, 172 bpm.
ranger

My resting HR is 45. (max 193).


Keep pushing threshold over distance, as you said you need to do. I have some sense that this one aspect of "use it or lose it."

[jliddil]

There are two types of training, (1) training that advances your base so that you have the possibility of going faster than you did last year or five years ago and (2) training that gets you ready to race.

The first sort of training is work on basic fitness, UT work, UT2 and UT1, and work on technique.

The second sort of work is AT, TR, and AN work.

As you age, if your focus is just on the second sort of work, you race well, but you decline by a second or so a year over 2K, even if you work as hard as you can in training, and you never do anything out of the ordinary.

The gains you can get by doing the first sort of work are limited in various ways, but can still be large.

They depend on the balance/imbalance in your training, your training volume, your athletic ability, your aerobic capacity, your technical accomplishment, your endurance, your experience in other sports, your base fitness, your cross-trainiing, your strength, etc.

If you have glaring weaknesses, advances in any of these things can improve your base significantly and lay the foundations for a leap forward in your race preparation and racing, even for something extraordinary.

By and large, the standard 2K training plans are just of the second sort.

They prepare you to race.

Therefore, if you have ever trained to race before, given some training base that you have already established, they have no bearing at all on how you might get better.

ranger

Can you please summarize what kind of training plan you follow or might suggest as a starting point? I ask since you feel based on your experience that simply following a 2K race plan (or which there are many) is not the proper way to train to maximize and maintain fitness AND also get faster.

So can you reveal any of you specific training schedules? Or are you concerned that others will follow what you do and become more competitive?

[jliddil]

Yes, I am now getting my HR up nicely, riding along at 170 bpm.
180 bpm is AT for me.
My anaerobic threshold is 172 bpm.
What is your resting HR?
I know I need to keep pushing my HR at my anaerobic threshold but I really don't think this will be any problem.
I have been doing that all my life.
With my work on technique (effectiveness and efficiency), my real accomplishment over the last few years is not getting my HR up but keeping it down:
I now row along, 1:48 @ 25 spm with my HR at 155 bpm.
I can do a FM with my HR at 155 bpm.
Five years ago I did 1:48 with my HR at my anaerobic threshold, 172 bpm.

I think we have a lost opportunity here. As it seems you indeed are a rare individual from a genetic/fitness stand point. As someone else has suggested could you have a full physiology work up done and post some of the data? I think we all could gain from this. It is not unlike the data the university in Texas has published on Lance Armstrong.

And even as s start posting HR data from a C2 log. I know you don't really follow the numbers as you seem to be able to listen to your own body very well. But again if we are to gain from this thread, some real data into what makes you different from the rest of us older adults would be great. If we don't have data how can we figure out what it takes to maintain high levels of fitness through out life. After all I am not so sure even now we know all the answers to this. Look at history. Athletes used to believe things like drinking alcohol and taking morphine would make the better athletes. As a professor in the arts area I would hope you understand that this could support the greater good for everyone. Obesity and other degenerative diseases are at all time high yet you seem via genetics and lifestyle to have been able to avoid this. You are unique as you say over and over about your ability to maintain high HRs for long periods.

[mikvan52]

re: Unprecedented winning.
Click HERE

[ranger]

Can you please summarize what kind of training plan you follow or might suggest as a starting point? I ask since you feel based on your experience that simply following a 2K race plan (or which there are many) is not the proper way to train to maximize and maintain fitness AND also get faster.

So can you reveal any of you specific training schedules? Or are you concerned that others will follow what you do and become more competitive?

It is not hard to know what to do.

It is hard to do it.

Train in this order, not moving on to the next stage until you complete the one before.

(1) Learn to row effectively at low rates (16-25 spm).

(2) Learn to row efficiently (10 MPS) at moderate rates (26-32 spm).

(3) Row fast at high rates (33-40 spm).

(4) Race (36-37 spm?).

Rowing effectively is 13 SPI for lightweights, 16 SPI for heavyweights.

When you are rowing efficiently at 10 MPS, stroking power varies with rate:

1:55 @ 26 spm (8.8 SPI)
1:51 @ 27 spm (9.5 SPI)
1:47 @ 28 spm (10.3 SPI)
1:43 @ 29 spm (11 SPI)
1:40 @ 30 spm (11.7 SPI)
1:37 @ 31 spm (12.4 SPI)
1:34 @ 32 spm (13 SPI)

I suspect there are lots of ways to get this done. You just have to be patient and dedicated. Doesn't matter how you do it, I think. Find some way that works for you, given your strengths, weaknesses, physical abilities and physical history, age, etc.

Personally, I like to do about 20K a day on the erg.

I like to row every day, without rest days.

I like to cross-train a lot, for recovery and overall fitness.

Biking, jumping rope, stepping, sit ups, and running are my favorite modes of cross-training.

In the beginning, at least, I would recommend that you cross-train for the same amount of time that you erg.

Cross-train at UT2 HRs.

I also think that rowing OTW helps your erging.

ranger

[ranger]

Keep pushing threshold over distance, as you said you need to do. I have some sense that this one aspect of "use it or lose it."

Yes, I agree entirely.

But if you train at 32 spm, as I am doing now and will continue to do over the next year, you can't help but push your HR, so there is no problem.

If you row effectively (13 SPI for lightweights, 16 SPI for heavyweights) there is also no problem with this.

Physiologically, rowing effectively is challenging stuff.

The problem is:

Most people never row effectively.

Most people never train at 32 spm.

So they exactly do _not_ push their heartrates.

You are indeed right.

If you don't use it, you lose it.

Mike VB is a good example.

He has clearly lost it.

C'est dommage.

ranger

[ranger]

But again if we are to gain from this thread, some real data into what makes you different from the rest of us older adults would be great.

When I rowed my 60min pb when I was 52, I rowed with a HR flat at 172 spm for the hour.

My anaerobic threshold is still 172 bpm.

My maxHR is 190 bpm.

My resting HR is 40 bpm.

I don't think that this is at all the entire issue with rowing, though.

To row fast, you need to be effective and efficient at rowing.

That's an entirely different issue.

On the erg, I think that rowing well is worth about 5 seconds per 500m--across the board.

OTW, rowing well is worth twice that.

ranger