The Two Types of Training

[Carl Watts]

Ranger, the last couple days I've read a couple posts hinting toward you doing no distance trials until this fall. Could you please clarify?

No, I am not doing distance trials in the fall.

I am doing them over the next two weeks.

ranger

Awesome !!

Heres a link that NavigationHazzard kindly supplied to me for your signature that you can use to fill in some of the blanks....

http://www.c2ctc.com/make_image.php

[mikvan52]

At Athens 2004 the Danish LW M4- averaged 40.7 strokes per minute ... they were outrated by the Italians, who rated 40.9 spm for the race. If high rating actually meant everything then the Danes should not have won.

Maybe they should listen to Mike vB and row at 26 spm.

Has MvB ever recommended that someone else should row at the rating he rows?

To answer the rhetorical question posed by Nosmo: No.

Avoid the common pitfall of trying to trade rate for pace... It hurts too much. Try the easier route

Once you get your Fluid, try long uninterrupted rows at 18-22 spm

You are an ace, John! (or maybe just a deuce)
QUOTING OUT OF CONTEXT = GOLD MEDAL
In the last quote I was suggesting working on form not concentrating on low rate ~ but you left that part out, didn't you Low rate is the means to examine one's form... This was not a racing comment.

I guess you must not want ranger to improve his sculling...

Let me repeat myself:
Race rate is a different matter.. I do not make blanket statements as to what rate should be used in a race.
Again: I was discussing training for successful racing.
It's somewhat similar to RIch's spi training except that it not measured by such a crude form of division of watts by rate.
What I believe should be focused upon is being able to deliver good form as a matter of habit. Numerical measurement is not necessary => just the establishment of "well-trodden" neural pathways that allow the athlete to propel the boat over the surface of the water with the least disturbance.

The following ranger vid shows how strong RIch is. As RIch says, he does have a uniform erg and OTW stroke.
But it also shows a "trampoline effect" as the boat bounces downward at the release. See the boat hull disappear in the first sequence of this film?
To unlearn this motion, do you not agree with me that RIch should slow his stroke way down until he first eliminates said bounce? Then he can raise the rate... What would you have him do, John?



look here to see the identical form, except here it's on the erg (sinking too far back and downward at the release:


Idea: Play the two simultaneously to feel the damping effect of the ranger-release both on and off the water. The salient point is that the erg has not given ranger the feed-back necessary to know how to propel a boat without pushing it down in the water.

Why not give it a try yourself, John. Maybe Rich will change his mind and sell you his Peinert for $1k. Then he'll have the money to pay Henry!

[ranger]

Mike--

You are just watching two-year-old videos of my OTW rowing and outdated videos of me pulling hard, doing RWBs.

Neither has anything to do with my training at the moment.

On the erg, I am now pulling 1:43 @ 29 spm for my distance rowing.

This has nothing to do with 1:38 @ 24 spm.

My OTW rowing is also much better, in myriad ways.

Your modes of thinking are interesting.

You seem to think that nothing can be learned and that no one can get better.

Maybe that's just self-reference and doesn't have much to do with anyone else at all.

Sure, if you have been rowing for 40 years, as you have, it's pretty hard to get better.

But that's you, not me.

ranger

[ranger]

Mike--

Get on the erg and do 1:43 @ 29 spm.

When do you handle down?

And why?

ranger

[mikvan52]

Mike--

You are just watching two-year-old videos of my OTW rowing and outdated videos of me pulling hard, doing RWBs.

Neither has anything to do with my training at the moment.
....

Your modes of thinking are interesting.

You seem to think that nothing can be learned and that no one can get better.

The msg of my last post was to suggest how you can get better.. You confuse me with your comment.


Please direct me to a better representation of your current stroke. I thought it was "fixed" for good

I am still trying to fix my own stroke for the better. I don't know one way or the other if such a thing can be done. I'm trying like you.

I think, from old video, that your erg stroke is great for the erg.
Show us your OTW stroke then. Is there footage available? Was I mistaken in thinking that you've said the two were one and the same....

[whp4]

Mike--

Get on the erg and do 1:43 @ 29 spm.

When do you handle down?

And why?

ranger

Why should MvB do this before you supply any of the screenshots and videos you've been promising for months, if not years? When do you handle down?

If you don't want us commenting about your old videos, put up some new ones showing your allegedly improved form. We all know you won't and we all know the reason why -- despite all your protestations to the contrary, you still look like the S.S. Minnow going through that fateful storm

[mikvan52]

Mike--

Get on the erg and do 1:43 @ 29 spm.

When do you handle down?

And why?

ranger

I will not get on the erg again this spring/summer and do 2-5k race pace for some time now. I am OTW and my coach suggests I stay off the erg.
I'd be happy to do 60 minute pace though... .for 60 minutes.... You go first!

and I don't handle down... you do!

Back to OTW (remember: the SUB_JECT)
The single needs strength.. (your point (well taken)?) and what else??? Are you there????

F.... O.... R.... M..... (a whole lot of it)

The erg does not require much form at all.

Think not? Then don't pay attn. Ask someone else who wins OTW... or who coaches winners OTW... Ask the folks at tbfit.com or rowskills.com or Craftsbury, or Black Bear, or Florida Rowing Center, or Calm Waters.

Rich you are a fabulous erger. Can we leave that aside for now. I don't belittle erg champs. I've already said multiple times that you are the best 2k lightweight 59 year old out there...
Do you you want to move on to your next goal?

[johnlvs2run]

Once you get your Fluid, try long uninterrupted rows at 18-22 spm

Rich was rowing at 21 spm in the video.

Low rate is the means to examine one's form... This was not a racing comment.

Only if you're going at low intensity.
Rowing at low rates at high intensity has zero to do with the form used when racing.

In fact it is contrary to having good form at high ratings.

[snowleopard]

Once you get your Fluid, try long uninterrupted rows at 18-22 spm

Rich was rowing at 21 spm in the video.

Low rate is the means to examine one's form... This was not a racing comment.

Only if you're going at low intensity.
Rowing at low rates at high intensity has zero to do with the form used when racing.

In fact it is contrary to having good form at high ratings.

John,

Do you row? Have you ever rowed?

[ausrwr]

And you base that on what knowledge of OTW rowing, John?

[ranger]

I will not get on the erg again this spring/summer and do 2-5k race pace for some time now. I am OTW and my coach suggests I stay off the erg. I'd be happy to do 60 minute pace though... .for 60 minutes.... You go first!
and I don't handle down... you do!

I don't know where you get this stuff from, Mike.

My 60min pb is 16.7K.

And I am quite a bit better than that now.

On the erg, I am also quite a bit better than you over 2K.

The two are directly related.

None of this has anything to do with handling down.

Sure, I'll do 60min over the next couple of weeks.

Then we can see what you can do.

Why don't we both do it at 11 SPI and 135 df.?

Then our technique, by and large, will be the same, and any difference in our achievements will be differences in aerobic capacity.

Now high can you rate?

How high can I rate?

If you pull 11 SPI at 135 df., what rate will you shoot for, so that your HR stays below 143 bpm, your anaerobic threshold?

23 spm?

I'll run my HR to 170 bpm, which I think will come out to be about 29 spm.

Pulling 11 SPI in this way, the best young lightweights rate 32 spm, as do the best boats at the Head of the Charles.

Why?

I guess this is what I don't get.

If your aerobic capacity is so substantial, as you keep saying it is, despite your low maxHR, why don't you rate 32 spm for 60min pulling 11 SPI at 135 df., like the best young lightweights?

Doing 11 SPI is not pulling hard at all.

It is just a solid stroke for anyone who knows how to row well.

So technique is not the issue, or anything else skeletal-muscular.

A 60min row of this sort is just a pure test of aerobic capacity.

ranger

[Citroen]

Mike--

You are just watching two-year-old videos of my OTW rowing and outdated videos of me pulling hard, doing RWBs.

If you don't like Mike using that video then post a new one from 4:00am EDT on 14th April.

Go on get in your basement on your erg right now with the camera rolling.

[ranger]

Mike--

You are just watching two-year-old videos of my OTW rowing and outdated videos of me pulling hard, doing RWBs.

If you don't like Mike using that video then post a new one from 4:00am EDT on 14th April.

Go on get in your basement on your erg right now with the camera rolling.

I'd be happy to, if Mike will post a video rowing 1:38 @ 24 spm for twenty strokes or so, as I did in the video.

Then the exchange will be even.

ranger

[Citroen]

Can I just say that Bubble (our zebra finch) loved that video and was singing along to all the wonderful birdsong in the background. Thanks for sharing that.

[Citroen]

Mike--

You are just watching two-year-old videos of my OTW rowing and outdated videos of me pulling hard, doing RWBs.

If you don't like Mike using that video then post a new one from 4:00am EDT on 14th April.

Go on get in your basement on your erg right now with the camera rolling.

I'd be happy to, if Mike will post a video rowing 1:38 @ 24 spm for twenty strokes or so, as I did in the video.

Then the exchange will be even.

ranger

He may be able to do that. I think Mike lives in a more normal EASTERN DAYLIGHT timezone and isn't a freak and so isn't normally active on the forum at FOUR O'CLOCK in the MORNING.