The Road to Boston 2007

Anne · Post by **Anne** » October 25th, 2006, 8:09 am

Will- Nice sessions. You and I are on the same schedule. Do you wear a HR monitor or just go by feel?
George- I sped up the stroke rate at the end....my form was a mess as I was just racing up and down the slide-- and can't even imagine the AN sessions at 36+ SR. I am hoping to get some help on form/technique (again) and I will ask for an explanation of force curve. Unless it is easy to explain in writing, don't worry and I will ask someone at the gym....assuming anyone around here uses it for their stroke.

seat5 · Post by **seat5** » October 25th, 2006, 8:54 am

Tks Carla Smile I can see how a mirror might show you if you are opening you back to early but I would have thought the force curve was just that a representation of 'applied' force. You could create any force curve you like by applying varying degrees of input from legs, back or arms, and the display would not know the difference. I may of course be reading this wrong and you are not inferring a connection (if so, sorry Sad )

-
Generally speaking, you are right. However, my force curve used to always have a little sudden "pimple" on the left hand side. I didn't know what caused it. Then at the Crash B's last year (I went only as a spectator) I showed it to Paul Smith where he was demonstrating Ergmonitor. He watched me row just a minute or so and told me that I was opening my back about 1/10 of a second before the leg drive. That was causing the little "pimple" in the curve. I had been trying very hard to correct that fault, and had some in person coaching from Tom Bohrer. He used mirrors and drills to help me get the "feel" of what is should be like. Between that and being able to see on the force curve if there is a smooth upward curve or if it has that little jerky pimple has really helped me to correct the technique fault--but only if I make myself concentrate on it. I leave the display set on force curve and keep a watch on that. If the "pimple" appears for even one stroke I really focus on making sure I stay leaning forward until what I can do with my legs as far as spinning the flywheel is done. Between this work and some work on ab strength (though not as much as I should be doing, of course), and rowing on slides, I have not had a back failure now since last fall, when before it would happen probably twice a year. I am having to be doubly careful on "race" pieces now because I am rowing them on standard erg to get used to that for Crash Bs, and since the pressure is so much greater on the lower back on standard erg, I have to watch every stroke like a hawk.

whaskell · Post by **whaskell** » October 25th, 2006, 10:04 am

Anne wrote:Will- Nice sessions. You and I are on the same schedule. Do you wear a HR monitor or just go by feel?
George- I sped up the stroke rate at the end....my form was a mess as I was just racing up and down the slide-- and can't even imagine the AN sessions at 36+ SR. I am hoping to get some help on form/technique (again) and I will ask for an explanation of force curve. Unless it is easy to explain in writing, don't worry and I will ask someone at the gym....assuming anyone around here uses it for their stroke.

Hi Anne,

I do not use a HR monitor. I probably should, but the "by feel" method is simpler and has worked well for me so far. I have monitored my heart rate in the past when training seriously for cross-country ski racing, so I feel that I generally know where I am at. This is not very scientific, but I prefer simplicity. If I am tired, I will rest.

TomR · Post by **TomR** » October 25th, 2006, 7:32 pm

30r20 @ 2.03.8/154 HR

One second/500 faster than last week, but HR increased by only one beat.
That may be good.

On the other hand, it may not mean much. When I first started rowing regularly, I just rowed, improvising workouts. No HR monitor. No training bands, of which I was ignorant. No plan. Late in the year, I heard about racing, and at the end of the first year managed a 7.07 2k.

Started getting more "scientific." Got a HR monitor. Read up on physiology, training plans. Next year, managed to go 7 seconds faster. I hate to think of how many hours of study, not to mention rowing, went into that 7-second improvement. It has been downhill ever since.

So although I'm doing it differently from Will, I can't argue w/ his approach

Tom.

Anne · Post by **Anne** » October 25th, 2006, 10:10 pm

Carla---tonight I rowed on the water and was just happy to be outdoors in a boat (and even happier to get back to the boathouse when it was a bit past dusk--before dodging barges in the dusk) ....but tomorrow, I plan to just set the monitor to the force curve and watch it. Since an AT is planned, I may just do that workout on Friday instead and work on technique. Thanks,

seat5 · Post by **seat5** » October 26th, 2006, 12:34 am

Anne, it must be nice to really row in a real boat. Sometime I have got to try that again.
Until you have someone watch you row and compare what you are doing to what's happening on the curve, I don't know how helpful it is to watch it, because I tried to fix that little bump for months by myself but it never got fixed until I was told what was causing it. But it surely does give you something to focus on besides how tired you are!

Tom, nice 30r20.
How's this for unscientific? Today I did 2 x 8' AT and took my pulse for 15 secs. after each of the pieces. Both times it was 38 beats which comes out to 152. Since I was using a wall clock for the seconds and it slowed down during the 15 seconds I am guessing my HR to have been around 155--160. Now for another guess, using 220-46 for my max would make that 174. NO that can't be right, can it. Or is it. So AT is supposed to be at 80-85% of max. which would be I think 139 for 80% and 148 for 85%. What does this tell me? probably nothing, since that's just the general formula for max HR, and I counted pulse against a wall clock instead of using a monitor and then fiddled with the number I got.

It did keep me amused for a few minutes, though.

2027 1:58.4/26
2029 1:58.2/26 target 1:59/26
As usual the last minute or so was challenging but counting strokes kept me going.
Tomorrow is 2 x 10' AT.

TomR · Post by **TomR** » October 26th, 2006, 12:05 pm

Carla--

220-age is notoriously unreliable. For one of your "fun" rows, you can do a step test to determine your max heart rate.

Tom

Citroen · Post by **Citroen** » October 26th, 2006, 3:09 pm

TomR wrote:Carla--

220-age is notoriously unreliable. For one of your "fun" rows, you can do a step test to determine your max heart rate.

Tom

http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/Robergs2.pdf explains why.

seat5 · Post by **seat5** » October 26th, 2006, 8:04 pm

I kind of think the whole HR thing is a crock.....and now after reading that article, I'm less inclined to care about HR than ever.

(ducking to escape the various missiles being tossed in my direction)

2 x 10' AT today, felt tired before I even started (a little PMS going on I think) so went out conservatively on the first on (but still on target) and the second one quicker. I will take tomorrow off.

2523 1:58.9/26
2539 1:58.1/26

I was tired but felt strong. Did my unscientific pulse taking after and again ended up with 38 beats in 15 seconds. That and $2.50 will get you a cup of coffee, I guess.

TomR · Post by **TomR** » October 26th, 2006, 8:28 pm

UT1/5x10

I've decided to increase my UT1 intervals by 2 min each. Somehow training should be more demanding, and using a HR limit, I just didn't feel as though I was getting the required work.

So today I did 5x12. An hour feels like an honest day's training.

Paces ranged from 2.07.1 to 2.07.9, avg 2.07.5.

I could have done another couple of intervals at that pace (although HR would have creeped out of the "zone").

Carla--Didn't Lance Armstrong train using HR? Or did he have a secret weapon? That's what I need.

Tom

seat5 · Post by **seat5** » October 26th, 2006, 11:27 pm

Carla--Didn't Lance Armstrong train using HR? Or did he have a secret weapon?

Well, then, his heart rate isn't a crock, but mine is. ? (woman's perogative to be illogical?)

Nice UT1 session. My longest one so far was a 5 x 10. It doesn't come up again for 3 more weeks.

Anne · Post by **Anne** » October 27th, 2006, 12:05 am

Looking at the force curve was a diversion, but I had no idea how to evaluate what it meant. I hope to get some critique on form next week. And, after one AT interval I put down the handle.

Just didn't have the juice to do the workout. ( I had already done' considerable strength training but wanted to complete the AT workout so I could do the UT1 tomorrow.

So, I am pondering whether to jump to the UT1 session( I don't want to set a precedent for altering the plan--could become a excuse when I want to do it my way) or try the 3x7 again.

I won't be able to row during the weekend.

whaskell · Post by **whaskell** » October 27th, 2006, 5:48 am

Thursday Morning

10min WU 2248m
UT1 3 x 14min / max pace 1:54.5 / 22-24spm
Target 3x14min / avg pace 1:57.0 / 23spm / 2:50min rest
Actual:- 14min / 1:56.8 / 24spm / 3595m / 2:50min rest
Actual:- 14min / 1:56.9 / 23spm / 3594m / 2:50min rest
Actual:- 14min / 1:56.8 / 23spm / 3595m / 2:50min rest
Total Session: 13665m

Once I got through my warmup and woke up I felt good. Tomorrow is a day off which is needed.

The highest HR I have seen while on the rowing machine is about 187 which actually is quite close to 220 - age (180 in my case). My guess is I am doing my UT1 and AT workouts at and average HR higher than what the chart says.

My wife had a running coach that was having her monitor her heart rate for awhile and she could not get her heart rate up into the correct zone no matter how hard she ran (her HR was always significantly lower). She ended up getting so frustrated with it she smashed the heart rate watch with a rock and kept running based on how she felt. It is hard to generalize. If you are going to use HR I think you really need to accurately determine your max HR, VO2max, etc, otherwise its just a guess. (my opinion)

seat5 · Post by **seat5** » October 27th, 2006, 9:19 am

Anne wrote:Looking at the force curve was a diversion, but I had no idea how to evaluate what it meant. I hope to get some critique on form next week. And, after one AT interval I put down the handle. Just didn't have the juice to do the workout. ( I had already done' considerable strength training but wanted to complete the AT workout so I could do the UT1 tomorrow.

So, I am pondering whether to jump to the UT1 session( I don't want to set a precedent for altering the plan--could become a excuse when I want to do it my way) or try the 3x7 again.

I won't be able to row during the weekend.

That's what I figured would happen with the force curve. Without having someone who knows how to judge your form watch you while you row and then look at the curve you are producing to show you what's causing what, it's really not very helpful. As George pointed out, you can produce a nice looking curve with a lousy stroke if you do it right.

I don't know what I would do in your position as far as whether to skip the AT workout or not. You are doing other training besides the IP so you hav other fatigue to deal with. I'm only doing the 4 IP sessions a week, which gives me 3 days off (though when we get our workout room set up I'm going to add some lifting routines). But I agree with you that allowing yourself to actually skip it might be like letting the camel's nose under the tent (you know what happens next, pretty soon in comes the whole damn camel!)

TomR · Post by **TomR** » October 27th, 2006, 7:29 pm

AT 3x7

1.58.0/152HR/24 spm
2.01.0/154HR/24spm
2.02.9/152HR/23spm

Overall a decent session, although I'm discouraged by my need to slow to stay under the HR limit. I've spent the last several years erging to the mantra of "negative splits." Now, here I am going slower each interval.

Tom