The Two Types of Training

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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mikvan52
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by mikvan52 » April 7th, 2010, 9:32 am

NavigationHazard wrote:
BrianStaff wrote:
ranger wrote:As far as I can tell right now, the two (rowing on the erg, rowing OTW) feel the same in terms of effort, etc.
I think that is "a purpose" of the damper on the ERG: 10==1X & 1==8+

Edit: before I am questioned about that...see Andy Hodge here http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_s ... 440592.stm
Hodgie is wrong. Period.
I agree with Nav'.
But, to give "AT" Hodge the benefit of the doubt... (although he shouldn't have said it the way he did in the video) Load is lighter for the eight than in the single.

Trivia question: Does Andy scull much?

I notice (from the video) that he demonstrates more compression (at the catch) on the erg than in the boat.
Additionally; The legs/back/arm sequencing explanation is only roughly schematic (perhaps as a way of explaining basics to novices). Most successful scullers and sweep oarsman do not separate these phases into three distinct periods.
Indeed: The OTW footage of Hodge in the pair shows excellent coordination and overlap of parts of these three phases...

Thanks for posting the link, Brian... I've continued to admire Hodge.... even before Beijing B)


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nysaag
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by nysaag » April 7th, 2010, 10:18 am

Has Ranger paid his debts yet?

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NavigationHazard
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by NavigationHazard » April 7th, 2010, 10:31 am

nysaag wrote:Has Ranger paid his debts yet?
No, and Carthage still needs to be destroyed.
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by mrfit » April 7th, 2010, 10:43 am

ranger wrote:
mrfit wrote:Here's a shot of my threshold HR. Final 30 minutes of a cycling tt around 180 bpm. This HURTS. (My max is 195, age 43).


Image
Spectacular stuff, especially for your age; and of course, a refutation of NavHaz's claim that no one can keep their HR steady at your anaerobic threshold for extended periods.

Zillions of folks can do it.

90% HRR!

My anaerobic threshold is only 87% HRR.

In any event, both of those numbers are pretty high for old guys with a HR of 190 bpm or more.

So what do you do for 60min on the erg?

You should beat the hell out of it, if you have any talent at all for rowing, and any effectiveness and efficiency with your technique.

At 180 bpm, I am going at least 1:36.

That would be 18.6K for 60min.

:shock: :shock:

ranger
Hey, there's a reason i'm mrfit :D

Perhaps you can work it to 90%, too.

BTW, wattage was declining quite dramatically at the end. Sorry not to corroborate your theory on this. The first half of the event was 277 watts, the second half 258 watts.

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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by NavigationHazard » April 7th, 2010, 10:49 am

As I've been saying.... :-)
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by jliddil » April 7th, 2010, 12:08 pm

mrfit wrote:Here's a shot of my threshold HR. Final 30 minutes of a cycling tt around 180 bpm. This HURTS. (My max is 195, age 43).


Image
OK I assume the red line is HR? If so then it is not constant.
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by johnlvs2run » April 7th, 2010, 12:33 pm

mikvan52 wrote:For instance: I watched the 60-69 men video feed last year and noticed that in 60-69 men : Jim Dietz (the winner) sculled at a lower rate than 2nd place, Jack Meyer.
Perhaps Dietz is taller than Meyer, or has longer torso and arms, and/or is comparatively top heavy. Maybe he's stronger. Who knows. Ebbesen, Luini & Stephansen row at 42/44 spm.

It should be simple to see that a tall rower is going to cover more distance per stroke, which has nothing to do with strength or athleticism.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2

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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by johnlvs2run » April 7th, 2010, 12:35 pm

NavigationHazard wrote:Muppet. I have never made such a claim.
NavigationHazard wrote:As I've been saying.... :-)
:-)
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2

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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by bloomp » April 7th, 2010, 1:06 pm

John Rupp wrote:
mikvan52 wrote:For instance: I watched the 60-69 men video feed last year and noticed that in 60-69 men : Jim Dietz (the winner) sculled at a lower rate than 2nd place, Jack Meyer.
Perhaps Dietz is taller than Meyer, or has longer torso and arms, and/or is comparatively top heavy. Maybe he's stronger. Who knows. Ebbesen, Luini & Stephansen row at 42/44 spm.

It should be simple to see that a tall rower is going to cover more distance per stroke, which has nothing to do with strength or athleticism.
John, that's not exactly comparing apples to apples. ELS can rate 42/44 over 2000m, Dietz used a lower rating to win Head of the Charles - 5km.
Last edited by bloomp on April 7th, 2010, 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by NavigationHazard » April 7th, 2010, 1:27 pm

1) No they don't all row OTW all the time at 42-44 spm. And no one rows a 5k head race at 42-44. At Athens 2004 the Danish LW M4- averaged 40.7 strokes per minute. It was under 40 spm for the middle 1000m of the >2k< race. In fact they were outrated by the Italians, who rated 40.9 spm for the race. If high rating actually meant everything then the Danes should not have won.
2) All the individuals you cite row internationally in multiple-rower boats. Those are inherently faster than are single sculls. Rating tends to correlate with boat speed. The faster the boat speed the easier it is to rate higher. This has nothing to do with athleticism or physique. It's a function of differences between classes of shell.
3) Luini and Ebbesen and Stephensen do NOT row the LW 1x internationally since it is NOT an Olympic event.
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » April 7th, 2010, 1:38 pm

whp4 wrote:
ranger wrote: On the erg, I was four seconds under the 50s lwt WR in my first race.
And that might almost be relevant, if you had been rowing as a 50s lwt...or if you had ever matched the result since. But despite devoting nearly every spare moment of the last 8 years to your quest, you are (much) slower.
Over the next year, indeed, I lost the weight and rowed the same, pulling 6:28 as a lightweight, rather than as a heavyweight, 3.5 seconds under Jean-Paul Trudeau's WR before I started to break it (repeatedly).

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » April 7th, 2010, 1:40 pm

Yikes, folks.

This discussion is way off base.

Who is talking "high" rates?

Not me.

I am just talking normal rates, e.g., 32 spm for 5K.

For a lighweight, 25 spm is a low rate for a 5K; 32 spm is not a high rate.

The issue is why MIke, rowing well, can't rate normally, not why he can't rate high.

Forget 42 spm.

I am talking 32 spm.

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Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » April 7th, 2010, 1:56 pm

mrfit wrote:BTW, wattage was declining quite dramatically at the end. Sorry not to corroborate your theory on this. The first half of the event was 277 watts, the second half 258 watts.
"Declining quite dramatically"?

Hardly.

On an erg, a quality heavyweight, accomplished over 60min, whose wattage dropped 19 watts would lose only 1.5 seconds/500m.

So, if they rowed the first 30min at 1:35 they would row the second 30min at 1:36.5.

For a row of that length, I would say that that is pretty much flat splits.

Given that this 60min row is 10 times longer than 2K, it is comparable to doing the first 1K of a 2K a half a second faster than the second 1K.

I'd take that any day.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on April 7th, 2010, 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by Nosmo » April 7th, 2010, 1:59 pm

John Rupp wrote:
mikvan52 wrote:For instance: I watched the 60-69 men video feed last year and noticed that in 60-69 men : Jim Dietz (the winner) sculled at a lower rate than 2nd place, Jack Meyer.
Perhaps Dietz is taller than Meyer, or has longer torso and arms, and/or is comparatively top heavy. Maybe he's stronger. Who knows. Ebbesen, Luini & Stephansen row at 42/44 spm.

It should be simple to see that a tall rower is going to cover more distance per stroke, which has nothing to do with strength or athleticism.
Or perhaps Dietz is shorter or has shorter torso and arms, and his style of rowing is optimized for a lower stroke. Or perhaps they are the same size and Dietz is loaded heavier or has longer oars and larger blades. Or perhaps his steering, and pacing is much better. Or perhaps he just pulled harder.

There are many trade offs involved in increasing the rating. Higher rating can lead to lower force per stroke and hence less muscle fatigue as well as more constant boat speed, but it results in lower blade efficiency, higher aerobic stress, more boat pitching as weight is transfered from bow to stern, as well as more boat checking because of a faster slide. Higher rating requires better technique.

Optimal stroke rating also is dependent on the speed of the boat. So someone who can do a 1K in 3:20 will be optimal at a higher rate then a geometrically identical person who can only do it 4:00. Just because Ebbesen, Luini & Stephansen row at 42/44 spm doesn't mean the MVB should row the way they do, or that they will be fastest at a 40/42 when they are 60.

I had a 2x partner a few years ago. We were both around 145 lbs and 5'7" and we were fastest in a 5K at about a 26 and in almost all of our races we crushed the competition. He rowed the same way in a 1x, 26 spm with short oars and a lot of inboard--he rigged his boat with the lightest load I've ever seen in a 1x, rowed at a lower rating then almost all of his competition yet won everything. Last year I did a few 2x races with a total novice. We were fastest in a 5K at a 28-29. He was about the same size as my former partner but we were far slower.

Rating is one factor of many (much more so OTW then OTE). The idea that the sculler who can rate the highest will win or that someone will go faster if they could rate higher is just not borne out by either theory or evidence.

For 5K, 32 spm is not a "normal rating" for a 55-59 year old lightweight. It is the upper end of "normal". Mike seems to have figured out how to go very fast. The idea that he will necessarily be faster if he could rate at a 32 for a 5K is ludicrous. He can rate at a 32 for 5K (almost everyone can figure out how to do that) however he would probably be slower.
Last edited by Nosmo on April 7th, 2010, 5:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by johnlvs2run » April 7th, 2010, 2:01 pm

NavigationHazard wrote: At Athens 2004 the Danish LW M4- averaged 40.7 strokes per minute ... they were outrated by the Italians, who rated 40.9 spm for the race. If high rating actually meant everything then the Danes should not have won.
Maybe they should listen to MikeB and row at 26 spm. :)
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2

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