The Two Types of Training

[leadville]

Dr. Fritz Hagerman, an exercise physiologist at Ohio University, said he had learned from more than three decades of studying world class rowers that the whole idea of a formula to predict an individual's maximum heart rate was ludicrous. Even sillier, he said, is the common notion that the heart rate is an indication of fitness.

Some people get blood to their muscles by pushing out large amounts every time their hearts contract, he said. Others accomplish the same thing by contracting their hearts at fast rates. As a result, Dr. Hagerman said, he has seen Olympic rowers in their 20's with maximum heart rates of 220. And he has seen others on the same team and with the same ability, but who get blood to their tissues by pumping hard, with maximum rates of just 160.

Sure.

But I am talking about 60-year-olds, not 20-year-olds, and I am talking about someone with a resting HR of 40 bpm, not 70 bpm.

On the average, with age, your maxHR falls about a beat per minute per year.

So, a rower with a maxHR of 200 bpm at 20 years old tends to have a max HR of 160 bpm at 60 spm, even though that rower's resting HR is the same.

This loss of aerobic capacity is devastating, and translates into a loss of a second or so over 2K per year.

So, a lightweight who can pull 6:00 for 2K at 20 can only pull 6:40 for 2K at 60.

My maxHR is still 190 bpm, with a resting HR of 40 bpm.

That is, I have the aerobic capacity of a 30-year-old.

Your citing of Hagerman is irrelevant.

He has no study that bears on the issue.

Has he studied a population of 60-year-olds with resting HRs of 40 bpm and maxHR's of 190 bpm?

No.

Why?

Because they are disappearingly rare.

ranger

rangerboy, once again you are just about as ignorant of exercise physiology as it is possible to be.

heart rate DOES NOT EQUAL AEROBIC CAPACITY you moron. If it did, all we'd have to do is measure everyone's heart rate and know their aerobic capacity. THAT DOES NOT WORK, NEVER HAS, NEVER WILL, ON YOUR PLANET OR ANYWHERE ELSE.

The only thing that is "disappearingly rare" are your lucid and intelligent comments.

[ranger]

heart rate DOES NOT EQUAL AEROBIC CAPACITY you moron

So, 60-year-olds, whose max HR has fallen 40 bpm have just the aerobic capacity of 20-year-olds, even though 60-year=olds tend to row the same pace as 20-year-olds at the same HR?

Ah.

So, you think that the _huge_ slowdown with age is not aerobic, but skeletal-muscular?

Old rowers can really blow a lot of air, as much as they need to be as good as a 20-year=old, but they are just weak, uncoordinated s.o.b.'s who can't pull an oar because they're wimps?

ranger

[whp4]

Old rowers can really blow a lot of air, as much as they need to be as good as a 20-year=old, but they are just weak, uncoordinated s.o.b.'s who can't pull an oar because they're wimps?

You certainly blow a lot of (hot) air. Judging from your videos, you are uncoordinated with the oars. Judging from the number of times you've quit during a race over the last handful of years, you're also a wimp. So, yes, there is at least one old rower who matches your description, and you'll see him the next time you admire yourself in the mirror.

[leadville]

heart rate DOES NOT EQUAL AEROBIC CAPACITY you moron

So, 60-year-olds, whose max HR has fallen 40 bpm have just the aerobic capacity of 20-year-olds, even though 60-year=olds tend to row the same pace as 20-year-olds at the same HR?

Ah.

So, you think that the _huge_ slowdown with age is not aerobic, but skeletal-muscular?

Old rowers can really blow a lot of air, as much as they need to be as good as a 20-year=old, but they are just weak, uncoordinated s.o.b.'s who can't pull an oar because they're wimps?

ranger

ranger ranger ranger - sigh.

no no no.

your aerobic capacity question is nothing more than a blatant display of your ignorance. that question is completely wrong, misplaced, inappropriate, misguided, dumb. And, where do you find the data to support your assertion that "60-year=olds tend to row the same pace as 20-year-olds at the same HR?"

As Dr Hagerman and others have demonstrated, THERE IS WIDE VARIATION IN HEART RATES WITHIN ELITE, MASTERS AND EVERY OTHER 'CLASS' OF ATHLETES.

To wit, MikevB, the reigning world champion in your age category on the erg and national champion OTW, has a lower heart rate than many, yet outperforms them OTE and OTW. In fact, I have erged next to Mike, who was putting out more watts than I even though my HR was higher, and I am "trained". Why? HE HAS A LARGER STROKE VOLUME AND A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF HIS MUSCLE FIBER IS SLOW TWITCH TISSUE.

and why are you focused on 60 year olds? Check your drivers' license - YOU ARE 59.

are you this obtuse in real life?

[aharmer]

Wait leadville, he's still comtemplating how he's going to get out of the lie about doing double unders for 7 minutes straight. My guess is he'll ignore it and move on to improperly arguing aerobic capacities of 60 year olds.

[Citroen]

and why are you focused on 60 year olds? Check your drivers' license - YOU ARE 59.

Do you really mean that the Michigan DMV allow the mentally incapable to drive on the public highway?

[Byron Drachman]

Wait leadville, he's still comtemplating how he's going to get out of the lie about doing double unders for 7 minutes straight. My guess is he'll ignore it and move on to improperly arguing aerobic capacities of 60 year olds.

I came across this demonstration of double unders:

[ranger]

HE HAS A LARGER STROKE VOLUME AND A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF HIS MUSCLE FIBER IS SLOW TWITCH TISSUE.

So it's Mike's higher stroke volume and higher percentage of slow twitch fibres that makes it so that he is a dozen seconds slower than the best young lightweights?

Interesting.

You learn something every day.

I thought a large stroke volume, etc., would help you, not disable you.

I guess it must be devastating to have a big sloppy heart like that.

I'm glad I just have a little pipsqueak pumper.

ranger

[ranger]

BTW, my reference is to heart rate reserve (HRR), not maxHR.

ranger

[ranger]

And, where do you find the data to support your assertion that "60-year=olds tend to row the same pace as 20-year-olds at the same HR?"

Well, Mike and I both pull a 5K @ 1:48 with a HR of around 150 bpm, perhaps pushing up to 155 bpm.

But given that his maxHR is 163 bpm, Mike is working quite a bit harder than I am when he does it.

AT

For me, 155 bpm is FM effort, low UT1.

My anaerobic threshold is 172 bpm.

Mike's anaerobic threshold is 143 bpm.

My maxHR is 190 bpm.

ranger

[ranger]

Did you notice that he ignored my post about his double unders lie? I'm still waiting for the video of a 59 year old man doing 6-7 minutes straight of double unders. I imagine videotaping something like this goes against his training principles in some way...maybe he's capable of doing 90 minutes of double unders, so showing 6-7 minutes is beneath him.

No, not double unders.

Just singles.

Still challenging, though, if you keep the jumping up for an hour.

Can you do it?

Great conditioning for rowing.

It is the explosive pointing of the toes with the calves, together with the swing of the back, that accelerates the handle through the sweet spot in the middle of the stroke into and out of the finish.

This acceleration of the handle in the middle of the stroke and into the finish has a huge effect on both stroking power and rate.

ranger

[PaulH]

Well, Mike and I both pull a 5K @ 1:48 with a HR of around 150 bpm, perhaps pushing up to 155 bpm.

No you don't. In fact when I said you did you denied it, so why are you claiming it now?

[ranger]

Well, Mike and I both pull a 5K @ 1:48 with a HR of around 150 bpm, perhaps pushing up to 155 bpm.

No you don't. In fact when I said you did you denied it, so why are you claiming it now?

Yes, I do.

How?

My distance rowing is getting better and better.

Why?

I am doing it for 20K every day.

I haven't done that in seven years.

Distance rowing is my major strength.

For seven years, I have been working on my weaknesses--technique and stroking power.

No longer.

Mission Accomplished.

I now row well.

ranger

[ranger]

Beautiful distance stroke now.

I really have the rate up--to 30 spm.

And that's plenty.

Keepin' it snappy!

Now, I can just row 30 spm every day, adjusting the stroking power to the level of effort I want to put into it.

There's that Head of the Charles stroke again!

If I row easily (11 SPI), I go 1:42.

If I row hard (14 SPI), I go 1:34.

Nice to have this range of stroking power--11 SPI-14 SPI.

It was hard earned.

Took me seven years to get it.

In my distance rowing, I can just keep putting a little more into it at 30 spm until my HR rides at my anaerobic threshold (172 bpm).

And hold it there.

Then, from day to day, I can look for training effects--a lower HR, better relaxation, more length, better timing, better endurance, better leverage, etc.

"Threshold" rowing.

No reason to go back to anything less than 30 spm.

I am _very_ comfortable with this sort of rowing.

It's my favorite type of session.

This is what I did for a quarter of a century when I was a marathon runner.

This is what I did for two years or so (without doing anything else) when I first took up rowing ten years ago.

Pretty much, I have been doing this sort of physical work on a daiily basis all of my adult life.

I would guess that not many young elite lightweights have an anaerobic threshold of 172 bpm (with a resting HR of 40 spm).

If their anaerobic threshold is 80% HRR, they would have to have a max HR of 205 spm.

I am old as hell, and therefore I am losing all of the things that usually go with age (hair, teeth, skin, etc.), but on this one, I am still looking 'em right in the eye.

The playing field is level.

ranger

[NavigationHazard]

In fact, I have erged next to Mike, who was putting out more watts than I even though my HR was higher, and I am "trained". Why? HE HAS A LARGER STROKE VOLUME AND A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF HIS MUSCLE FIBER IS SLOW TWITCH TISSUE.

The only one here making specious comparisons to elite 20something lightweights is you. What part of "Mike...was putting out more watts" during their joint erg session because Mike "has a larger stroke volume and a higher percentage of his muscle fiber is slow-twitch tissue" is so hard to understand for you?

Wait, wait, don't tell me. All of it.

As for other gems from this morning:

It is the explosive pointing of the toes with the calves, together with the swing of the back, that accelerates the handle through the sweet spot in the middle of the stroke into and out of the finish.

Explosive pointing of the toes?? In the middle of the stroke, yet??? The last best version of your foot plant had you abjuring any rockup onto your toes at the catch and keeping your feet flat against the footplate during the drive. Please let us know how you can point your toes "explosively" (whatever that's supposed to mean) while keeping your feet flat. You can't point them if you can't move them.

And what pray tell does "pointing ... the calves" mean? Might this have to do with herding young bovines? It certainly can't have anything to do with your lower legs between your ankles and your knees, which can't independently be extended since their lengths are fixed by your femurs.

As for "accelerating the handle" during the drive, by definition all normal drives on a C2 erg involve handle acceleration. If you stop accelerating the handle you stop accelerating the flywheel. And the monitor interprets the onset of deceleration as the end of your drive.

As for "accelerating the handle ... out of the finish," please explain how any possible arrangement of the lower limbs can have anything to do with getting your hands away quickly.

Finally, this one might win "Howler of the Day":

am _very_ comfortable with this sort of rowing. It's my favorite type of session. This is what I did for a quarter of a century when I was a marathon runner.

And here I thought that marathon runners generally trained by running.