Maffetone Heart Rate Training

[mitchel674]

I tried this yesterday for a 12k keeping my HR at the Maffetone suggested 130. Rowing at 20spm, I wound up keeping my pace at 2:29 to avoid increasing my HR. I'm very slow, but I typically do these steady state rows at 2:20 and my HR is typically 140-145. Should I really be doing these long rows so slowly? I'm willing to put the time in if there is benefit. Perhaps I have been training in the grey area black hole heart rate all this time?

Depends a bit. M does not use real hf numbers, but sees everybody as the same. So if we take two rowers, one with a high max hr and an other with a low max.
This would mean that the guy with the high max relative to the other works out at a lower intensity. In some cases two people the same age can have 20/30 beats difference in Max Hr.

For you, look at your max. Is that 220 minus your age or a good bit different. If its much higher, 130 would low.
On the other hand if you try this, your pace with this cape should come down. If its working.

Henry, thanks for weighing in. My endurance over the past year has improved with my long rows at 140-145, but my pace has clearly plateaued. I routinely row half marathons at 2:25. It may be my poor technique, or perhaps I have detrained myself into this current state as I prepared myself for my marathon.

I am willing to put the time and effort in at these low heart rates if it will help me in the long run. I believe my max heart rate is 180.

[hjs]

Henry, thanks for weighing in. My endurance over the past year has improved with my long rows at 140-145, but my pace has clearly plateaued. I routinely row half marathons at 2:25. It may be my poor technique, or perhaps I have detrained myself into this current state as I prepared myself for my marathon.

I am willing to put the time and effort in at these low heart rates if it will help me in the long run. I believe my max heart rate is 180.

Mitchel, first get that marathon done. After that you could introduce some more speed. This should break your plateau. Also keep in mind, after the first early gains, progress does still come, but much slower.....

You should see my training

[Dangerscouse]

I tried this yesterday for a 12k keeping my HR at the Maffetone suggested 130. Rowing at 20spm, I wound up keeping my pace at 2:29 to avoid increasing my HR. I'm very slow, but I typically do these steady state rows at 2:20 and my HR is typically 140-145. Should I really be doing these long rows so slowly? I'm willing to put the time in if there is benefit. Perhaps I have been training in the grey area black hole heart rate all this time?

I think there is some trade off between the HR cap and your enjoyment of the session. If you find that rowing at 130 feels too slow, personally I'd increase it a bit to get some more mental benefits from it rather than feeling bored and frustrated, but trial and error is always a good idea.

I have seen some very accomplished rowers (eg Justin Farina) training with an 80% cap for steady state so it can be subjective. I'm finding that circa 75% seems to be my Goldilocks zone.

Also, has weather been playing a part in your HR? Mine is up at least a few beats due to the heat and humidity.

[max_ratcliffe]

One way not to do this is to slow down and at the same time, reduce your volume.

Hardly earth-shattering news. Life getting in the way of erging.

[mitchel674]

Henry, thanks for weighing in. My endurance over the past year has improved with my long rows at 140-145, but my pace has clearly plateaued. I routinely row half marathons at 2:25. It may be my poor technique, or perhaps I have detrained myself into this current state as I prepared myself for my marathon.

I am willing to put the time and effort in at these low heart rates if it will help me in the long run. I believe my max heart rate is 180.

Mitchel, first get that marathon done. After that you could introduce some more speed. This should break your plateau. Also keep in mind, after the first early gains, progress does still come, but much slower.....

You should see my training

Henry, I completed my Marathon last month after a 12 week training plan. Now moving on. I could give the Maffetone theory a try at 50-60km per week for a month or two.

[hjs]

Henry, thanks for weighing in. My endurance over the past year has improved with my long rows at 140-145, but my pace has clearly plateaued. I routinely row half marathons at 2:25. It may be my poor technique, or perhaps I have detrained myself into this current state as I prepared myself for my marathon.

I am willing to put the time and effort in at these low heart rates if it will help me in the long run. I believe my max heart rate is 180.

Mitchel, first get that marathon done. After that you could introduce some more speed. This should break your plateau. Also keep in mind, after the first early gains, progress does still come, but much slower.....

You should see my training

Henry, I completed my Marathon last month after a 12 week training plan. Now moving on. I could give the Maffetone theory a try at 50-60km per week for a month or two.

Sorry missed that one.
Two months should absolutely see improvements. A difficult point could be boredom, but thats different for everybody.

[mitchel674]

One way not to do this is to slow down and at the same time, reduce your volume.

Hardly earth-shattering news. Life getting in the way of erging.

Agreed. Slowing down and not putting in the meters would be a recipe for disaster. I could probably keep my volume at 50km/week pretty easily.

I tried this yesterday for a 12k keeping my HR at the Maffetone suggested 130. Rowing at 20spm, I wound up keeping my pace at 2:29 to avoid increasing my HR. I'm very slow, but I typically do these steady state rows at 2:20 and my HR is typically 140-145. Should I really be doing these long rows so slowly? I'm willing to put the time in if there is benefit. Perhaps I have been training in the grey area black hole heart rate all this time?

I think there is some trade off between the HR cap and your enjoyment of the session. If you find that rowing at 130 feels too slow, personally I'd increase it a bit to get some more mental benefits from it rather than feeling bored and frustrated, but trial and error is always a good idea.

I have seen some very accomplished rowers (eg Justin Farina) training with an 80% cap for steady state so it can be subjective. I'm finding that circa 75% seems to be my Goldilocks zone.

Also, has weather been playing a part in your HR? Mine is up at least a few beats due to the heat and humidity.

Thanks for your input, Stu. I'm just wondering if I am actually doing myself a disservice by doing all my steady state at 140-145.

I'm in florida. Always hot and humid here. I stay pretty well hydrated and my heart rate is pretty consistent when I row.

[dknickerbocker]

Henry, thanks for weighing in. My endurance over the past year has improved with my long rows at 140-145, but my pace has clearly plateaued. I routinely row half marathons at 2:25. It may be my poor technique, or perhaps I have detrained myself into this current state as I prepared myself for my marathon.

I am willing to put the time and effort in at these low heart rates if it will help me in the long run. I believe my max heart rate is 180.

Mitchel, first get that marathon done. After that you could introduce some more speed. This should break your plateau. Also keep in mind, after the first early gains, progress does still come, but much slower.....

You should see my training

Henry, would you advise him NOT to add any speed while training for the marathon? I'd have thought that it'd still be beneficial to do some, and that it couldn't hurt.

[hjs]

Henry, thanks for weighing in. My endurance over the past year has improved with my long rows at 140-145, but my pace has clearly plateaued. I routinely row half marathons at 2:25. It may be my poor technique, or perhaps I have detrained myself into this current state as I prepared myself for my marathon.

I am willing to put the time and effort in at these low heart rates if it will help me in the long run. I believe my max heart rate is 180.

Mitchel, first get that marathon done. After that you could introduce some more speed. This should break your plateau. Also keep in mind, after the first early gains, progress does still come, but much slower.....

You should see my training

Henry, would you advise him NOT to add any speed while training for the marathon? I'd have thought that it'd still be beneficial to do some, and that it couldn't hurt.

Depends a bit. Most ergers come from shorter distances and have speed enough, so in that situation speed is not very important, its all about that 3 hours (give or take)
If thats not the case, some speed may be usefull, but still not very important. I would say in the run up to a marathon 95% should be long and even slow. Getting the body ready to perform beyond 25/30k is the main goal. Even at slow pace just the duration of 42k will be a killer.
For pure long distance specialists this may be different, for them a marathon on itself may not be so difficult, but pace is.

I do talk about doing a serious TT, not just doing one, and taking rest etc.

[Tony Cook]

One way not to do this is to slow down and at the same time, reduce your volume.

Hardly earth-shattering news. Life getting in the way of erging.

I question that’s been in my mind for a while about what is ‘long’ and what is ‘volume’.
If two different types rowed for an hour at 70% HR but one covers 15k and the other 10k have they benefited equally because they’ve exercised for the same time at the same MHR %age OR does the 10k rower have to go for another 30 minutes to get the same benefit as his fitter friend?

[mict450]

......my Goldilocks zone...

A great phrase to describe that delicate tipping point between too much vs too little, that applies to all aspects of life, not just training.

[dknickerbocker]

Mitchel, first get that marathon done. After that you could introduce some more speed. This should break your plateau. Also keep in mind, after the first early gains, progress does still come, but much slower.....

You should see my training

Henry, would you advise him NOT to add any speed while training for the marathon? I'd have thought that it'd still be beneficial to do some, and that it couldn't hurt.

Depends a bit. Most ergers come from shorter distances and have speed enough, so in that situation speed is not very important, its all about that 3 hours (give or take)
If thats not the case, some speed may be usefull, but still not very important. I would say in the run up to a marathon 95% should be long and even slow. Getting the body ready to perform beyond 25/30k is the main goal. Even at slow pace just the duration of 42k will be a killer.
For pure long distance specialists this may be different, for them a marathon on itself may not be so difficult, but pace is.

I do talk about doing a serious TT, not just doing one, and taking rest etc.

Got it, that makes sense: training history is definitely relevant and agree most rowers would have been coming from plenty of short hard trainings. Was curious just because reaching actual vo2max does require a substantial anaerobic contribution so if you only trained long and easy for a long time, you might wind up giving up some aerobic capacity (ironically).

[Dangerscouse]

One way not to do this is to slow down and at the same time, reduce your volume.

Hardly earth-shattering news. Life getting in the way of erging.

I question that’s been in my mind for a while about what is ‘long’ and what is ‘volume’.
If two different types rowed for an hour at 70% HR but one covers 15k and the other 10k have they benefited equally because they’ve exercised for the same time at the same MHR %age OR does the 10k rower have to go for another 30 minutes to get the same benefit as his fitter friend?

Good question. I'm guessing, but I'd assume that if the length of time is the same, the body will adapt in the same way due to the same equivalent stress that is being applied.

There could be other manifold factors in play that prevents them from doing 15k rather than 10k eg size, age, weight, genetics, technique, VO2max etc.

I'll be interested to see if there are any scientific answers to this as mine is predicated on very flaky assumptions

[dknickerbocker]

One way not to do this is to slow down and at the same time, reduce your volume.

Hardly earth-shattering news. Life getting in the way of erging.

I question that’s been in my mind for a while about what is ‘long’ and what is ‘volume’.
If two different types rowed for an hour at 70% HR but one covers 15k and the other 10k have they benefited equally because they’ve exercised for the same time at the same MHR %age OR does the 10k rower have to go for another 30 minutes to get the same benefit as his fitter friend?

Good question. I'm guessing, but I'd assume that if the length of time is the same, the body will adapt in the same way due to the same equivalent stress that is being applied.

There could be other manifold factors in play that prevents them from doing 15k rather than 10k eg size, age, weight, genetics, technique, VO2max etc.

I'll be interested to see if there are any scientific answers to this as mine is predicated on very flaky assumptions

I think that's right. The same amount of time at the same level of metabolic "demand" should = same same impact and so should = same benefit. The body doesn't know "meters", it just knows how much of each substrate it's being asked to use and how long. But there are caveats.

1. same percentage of max heart rate might not actually mean same metabolic demand. One rower could be able to sustain a higher percentage of their max. It's probably close enough, but each rower needs to fine tune it and that's why we target a rnage rather than a specific number.
2. The demands could change over the course of the workout. If one rower is less fit and their slowtwitch fibers fatigue faster, they get more tired from an equivalent amount of time
3. not everybody responds to the same training in the same way, even if they are equalized for the metabolic perturbance they induce

[MiddleAgeCRISIS]

this has been an interesting read... i may have to try these longer low rate works to get me back to some semblance of fitness

I have found it to be superb in losing weight without injury. It's about a stone every 20 days for me at 20k days.

I previously got gout through a combination of rapid weight loss and dehydration so I am doing at a level where I barely sweat to help with this aspect.

At the start I think my heart rate was 120 for 3 minute splits and now its 120bpm for 2.30 splits and 130 bpm for 2.20 splits.

Every so often i do a serious concentrated work out and I am down to 2.02 splits for 10k at 155 bpm.

Maffetone has helped me understand the benefits of how I am training. There is also a youtube channel by Floris Gierman who is discussing endurance training with several high quality coaches and runners. There is some very good content with world record holders.