That's hilarious.
Altitude
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johnlvs2run
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NavigationHazard
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Against my better judgement, for posting here:John Rupp wrote:Tgeldean,
I took your word for it that you knew something about distance running, but by your assertions you have proven yourself to be wrong.
[snip]
7) Keflizighi is from a SEA LEVEL country in Africa. He didn't live at altitude. He has the American record for the 10000 meters, but wouldn't even make the international team from his birth country, if he was still there.
[snip]
One wonders what a "sea level country" might look like. Possibly the Maldives come close, since AFAIK they have a maximum natural elevation of maybe 2 1/2 meters above sea level. Keflezighi (he chooses to spell it with an "le") is originally from Eritrea. Although Eritrea does have an ocean coast, it is decidedly NOT like the Maldives and has considerable inland elevation.
According to his own website, Meb Keflezighi was born in Asmara, Eritrea in 1975. He lived there until 1986, when his family went to join his father in Milan, Italy. From 1987 he lived in San Diego CA.
Asmara is located at the eastern edge of the Eritrean highland and has an altitude of roughly 2363 meters/ 7755 feet.
For comparison, note that Nairobi has an altitude of roughly 1728 meters/ 5672 feet.
Asela, Ethiopia, where Gebreselassie was born, has an altitude of 2430 meters/ 7975 feet.
Bekoji, Ethiopia, where Bekele was born, has an altitude of 2808 meters/ 9215 feet.
To be fair, nether Gebreselassie nor Bekele spent their teens in San Diego....
67 MH 6' 6"
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johnlvs2run
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John-
I'm not sure if it's your goal, or if you're just naturally like this, but you're starting to piss me off. I understand that most people on this board eventually come to the same conclusion about you, but I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. Nobody likes a know-it-all, but it's really annoying when you try to put words in my mouth. To address your current bunch of crap:
1. Tell me - what altitude Bekele typically lives at? And by the way, tell me - what altitude is Addis Ababa? Hint - they should be close to the same number.
2. Yep, Kenyans & Ethiopian runners will go to higher altitudes to train. Runners in Colorado even do the same. As a runner living at altitude, even I have been known to do the same thing. But I would certainly not travel to a higher altitude to train on the track. Ideally, one's fastest work would take place in the location that would allow one to run the fastest.
3 & 4. You were so wrong about Bob Kennedy before, but you insist on digging yourself before. As a refresher, you said that Kennedy had utilized altitude training in setting the American Record at 5000m. I pointed out that he didn't actually train at altitude until many years AFTER he had set those records. Bob Kennedy (now retired from competitive running), lives in Indiana, but is actually FROM (as in where he grew up) Ohio. Both of these places are at sea level. So he lived at sea level, and trained at sea level - even when he travelled to Kim McDonald's training camps with African runners, etc. I've never said that every good runner practices the live high/train low technique. Of course, more are practicing it now, than when Kennedy was in his 5000m prime.
5. I know plenty about CU. Not only do I know Mark Wetmore, but I know other coaches there, as well as a number of former CU runners. They live and train here, yes. Here's a nice quote from Wetmore in a Trail Runner interview, not that he knows anything about running and altitude (sarcasm, to make it clear):
TR: What about training at altitude?
MW: Despite the fact that we've had good results here at CU, I'm not a huge advocate of altitude. In fact, if I could train our runners at sea level, I'd do it. But for your readers, I'd guess it all depends on what you're training for. If you're going to run and race in the mountains, then you should train on the highest, hardest trails you can find. The training should always be specific to the goal.
---------
6. "Deena Kastor became competitive when she moved to Alamosa, Colorado to train. You didn't know this? Alamosa is at 7544 feet elevation."
Yes, I know plenty about Deena Kastor. She was a solid runner at Arkansas, but definitely improved upon moving to Alamosa and training with Coach Vigil. Her even bigger improvements then took place after she LEFT Alamosa (years ago), and moved to Mammoth Lakes, California (~8000'). She lives there, and even trains in the mountains, but her high quality work (track workouts, and other faster efforts) take place at sea level.
7. You were already schooled on Meb's country and altitude, but just to clarify: Meb was born in Asmara, Eritrea, which....is at 7300'. Many would argue that the biggest benefit of altitude comes from being born there, and there's even science to suggest that groups of people living at altitude for centuries have made beneficial adaptations that could in turn benefit an endurance athlete. While he holds the American Record at 10,000m, Meb has been a marathon specialist as of late. On the basis of his marathon performance at the Olympics in 2004, I think he would make most national teams at his specialty distance. He won the silver medal. No Eritrean runners even ran the event.
8. I have been known to question both Radcliffe and Kastor's performances (as well as most any top athletes - you name the sport). Agreed. That being said, I wouldn't call them buddies.
9. Wang Junxia had the best range for a woman that the world has ever known from 1500m to 10,000m. In fact, she ran many of her best times within a period of days. That being said, I've never tried to say that Radcliffe or Kastor were better. While I would certainly say that Wang's times are the most suspect of the group (Nnot only did they come somewhat out of nowhere, but the vast majority of her amazing performances were in China. She rarely competed outside of these controlled situations.), all 3 runners could very well be dirty athletes. Who is naturally the best? We'll never know. That's one terrible aspect about drugs in sports that significantly involve statistics. They screw up all sorts of comparisons and make it hard to know who really is/was the best.
---
Quote:
like Wang, I question how clean Bekele or many of the top runners are.
----
"Another example, of Americans taking the easy way out. "
Are you suggesting that Americans are taking the easy way out because none of them are using drugs? I can't tell what you're saying there. And I'm sure plenty of American runners are/were taking drugs.
As for the "breathing hard" issue, go and watch the footage from some of the championship races over the past few years. Watch how fast they have run late in the races and watch their breathing. It's one thing when top athletes "make it look easy." But it's something else entirely when they make past top runners look slow and untalented.
Quit putting words in my mouth. I've never said that I know the best way to train and not them. What I've said is that I know how many of the top runners DO train.
You have been wrong in so many ways on this thread. You should really quit while you're WAY behind, but I know you'll start running your mouth again.
I'm not sure if it's your goal, or if you're just naturally like this, but you're starting to piss me off. I understand that most people on this board eventually come to the same conclusion about you, but I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. Nobody likes a know-it-all, but it's really annoying when you try to put words in my mouth. To address your current bunch of crap:
1. Tell me - what altitude Bekele typically lives at? And by the way, tell me - what altitude is Addis Ababa? Hint - they should be close to the same number.
2. Yep, Kenyans & Ethiopian runners will go to higher altitudes to train. Runners in Colorado even do the same. As a runner living at altitude, even I have been known to do the same thing. But I would certainly not travel to a higher altitude to train on the track. Ideally, one's fastest work would take place in the location that would allow one to run the fastest.
3 & 4. You were so wrong about Bob Kennedy before, but you insist on digging yourself before. As a refresher, you said that Kennedy had utilized altitude training in setting the American Record at 5000m. I pointed out that he didn't actually train at altitude until many years AFTER he had set those records. Bob Kennedy (now retired from competitive running), lives in Indiana, but is actually FROM (as in where he grew up) Ohio. Both of these places are at sea level. So he lived at sea level, and trained at sea level - even when he travelled to Kim McDonald's training camps with African runners, etc. I've never said that every good runner practices the live high/train low technique. Of course, more are practicing it now, than when Kennedy was in his 5000m prime.
5. I know plenty about CU. Not only do I know Mark Wetmore, but I know other coaches there, as well as a number of former CU runners. They live and train here, yes. Here's a nice quote from Wetmore in a Trail Runner interview, not that he knows anything about running and altitude (sarcasm, to make it clear):
TR: What about training at altitude?
MW: Despite the fact that we've had good results here at CU, I'm not a huge advocate of altitude. In fact, if I could train our runners at sea level, I'd do it. But for your readers, I'd guess it all depends on what you're training for. If you're going to run and race in the mountains, then you should train on the highest, hardest trails you can find. The training should always be specific to the goal.
---------
6. "Deena Kastor became competitive when she moved to Alamosa, Colorado to train. You didn't know this? Alamosa is at 7544 feet elevation."
Yes, I know plenty about Deena Kastor. She was a solid runner at Arkansas, but definitely improved upon moving to Alamosa and training with Coach Vigil. Her even bigger improvements then took place after she LEFT Alamosa (years ago), and moved to Mammoth Lakes, California (~8000'). She lives there, and even trains in the mountains, but her high quality work (track workouts, and other faster efforts) take place at sea level.
7. You were already schooled on Meb's country and altitude, but just to clarify: Meb was born in Asmara, Eritrea, which....is at 7300'. Many would argue that the biggest benefit of altitude comes from being born there, and there's even science to suggest that groups of people living at altitude for centuries have made beneficial adaptations that could in turn benefit an endurance athlete. While he holds the American Record at 10,000m, Meb has been a marathon specialist as of late. On the basis of his marathon performance at the Olympics in 2004, I think he would make most national teams at his specialty distance. He won the silver medal. No Eritrean runners even ran the event.
8. I have been known to question both Radcliffe and Kastor's performances (as well as most any top athletes - you name the sport). Agreed. That being said, I wouldn't call them buddies.
9. Wang Junxia had the best range for a woman that the world has ever known from 1500m to 10,000m. In fact, she ran many of her best times within a period of days. That being said, I've never tried to say that Radcliffe or Kastor were better. While I would certainly say that Wang's times are the most suspect of the group (Nnot only did they come somewhat out of nowhere, but the vast majority of her amazing performances were in China. She rarely competed outside of these controlled situations.), all 3 runners could very well be dirty athletes. Who is naturally the best? We'll never know. That's one terrible aspect about drugs in sports that significantly involve statistics. They screw up all sorts of comparisons and make it hard to know who really is/was the best.
---
Quote:
like Wang, I question how clean Bekele or many of the top runners are.
----
"Another example, of Americans taking the easy way out. "
Are you suggesting that Americans are taking the easy way out because none of them are using drugs? I can't tell what you're saying there. And I'm sure plenty of American runners are/were taking drugs.
As for the "breathing hard" issue, go and watch the footage from some of the championship races over the past few years. Watch how fast they have run late in the races and watch their breathing. It's one thing when top athletes "make it look easy." But it's something else entirely when they make past top runners look slow and untalented.
Quit putting words in my mouth. I've never said that I know the best way to train and not them. What I've said is that I know how many of the top runners DO train.
You have been wrong in so many ways on this thread. You should really quit while you're WAY behind, but I know you'll start running your mouth again.
60:00 17018m / 30:00 8747m / 4:00 1251m / Half Marathon 1:15:04.7 / 10K 34:31.7 / 6K 20:37.3 / 5K 16:56.1 / 2K 6:29.6 / 1K 3:08.1 / 500m 1:31.1.
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johnlvs2run
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Addis Ababa is at high altitude.
Kenenisa Bekele, has prepared in Switzerland at his European high altitude base in St. Moritz for the latter part of the season.
http://www.iaaf.org/GLE05/news/Kind=2/newsId=31851.html
Based in Lausanne since 2002, Maryam Jamal spent the past three weeks training at altitude in St. Moritz.
http://www.iaaf.org/GLE05/news/Kind=2/newsId=30707.html
Nicholas Kemboi, three weeks training TRACK and repeititons on hills at St. Moritz 6000 feet 4 sets of [ 3000m + 6 x 60m sprint climbing ] with 2:00 recovery in 8:23, 8:24, 8:17, 8:23 plus than a final 1000 fast in 2:30.5 with the last 400 and 200 in 54.6 and 24.8.
Renato Canova Interview
http://www.mensracing.com/athletes/inte ... anova.html
"In Qatar, it is not possible to train for long distance. Qatar is a small country, 600,000 people. And [it's at] sea level."
"So the solution is for these guys to stay in Kenya, to train in Kenya. We are looking for a permanent camp during winter, then [cross country] World Championships, and then maybe again here in April and May. After that, we stay in St. Moritz [Switzerland] for a long time."
Beleke, Sihine, and Gebrselassie ran an 8k time trial at Altitude in Ethiopia at their competitive sea level pace of 26:30 pace for the 10k.
The Ethiopians and Kenyans don't travel to sea level to train. They do track training and hard running and repetitions at altitude. When they move to the U.S. they seek out the locations with altitude. There are many Kenyans living in Albuquerque, for example, because they like the altitude there for their training.
Bob Kennedy was a typical U.S. 5k runner before he went to Kenya and trained with the Kenyans, doing the training that Koman and the others were doing. That is when he began running his fastest times, twice under 13 minutes for the 5k, not before that.
He grew up and lived at sea level, but then trained with the Kenyans in Kenya, at altitude, and at St. Moritz, at altitude. This is not living high and training low but the opposite. Kennedy lives at sea level, and traveled all the way to Kenya to train, at altitude, with the Kenyans. Then he ran 12:58 for the 5k two times.
Wetmore takes his runners up to higher altitude than Boulder for some of their training. Many of their weekend runs are above 8000 feet. And a week ago they just won another NCAA cross country championships and a second, in two more major upsets. So Wetmore believes in the benefits of training at altitude.
Deena Kastor has done considerable training in Alamosa, Colorado and Mammoth, California. Alamosa is at 7500 feet altitude. Pat Porter his training in Alamosa, Colorado when he was winning many U.S. championships in cross country, and a 4th place in the WCCC.
Tadesse Zersenay from Eritrea, age 24 and who began running at age 19, is much faster than Meb. Tadesse is the bronze medal winner in the Athens 10000 meters behind Kenenisa Bekele, Sileshi Sihine and ahead of Haile Gebrselassie in humid 86 degree temperatures. At the 2006 WCCC the Eritrean senior men's team got the silver medal, moving up from 4th the year before, and trailing by only 6 points to perennial power Kenya who got the Gold and beating a team full of Ethiopia stars by over 30 points. In the individual 12k, Tadesse Zersenay won the silver medal in 2005 and was 4th in 2006.
Wang Junxia is World Champion in the marathon, and Olympic Gold and Silver medalist in the Olympic 5 and 10000 meters. Neither of thesee events were in China. The Olympic events were in Atlanta, which is in the United States.
Atlanta is in the U.S., not in China.
The Ethiopians, Kenyans, Chinese and runners from other countries know the secrets are in hard work and that is why they are running the fast times that they are.
Kenenisa Bekele, has prepared in Switzerland at his European high altitude base in St. Moritz for the latter part of the season.
http://www.iaaf.org/GLE05/news/Kind=2/newsId=31851.html
Based in Lausanne since 2002, Maryam Jamal spent the past three weeks training at altitude in St. Moritz.
http://www.iaaf.org/GLE05/news/Kind=2/newsId=30707.html
Nicholas Kemboi, three weeks training TRACK and repeititons on hills at St. Moritz 6000 feet 4 sets of [ 3000m + 6 x 60m sprint climbing ] with 2:00 recovery in 8:23, 8:24, 8:17, 8:23 plus than a final 1000 fast in 2:30.5 with the last 400 and 200 in 54.6 and 24.8.
Renato Canova Interview
http://www.mensracing.com/athletes/inte ... anova.html
"In Qatar, it is not possible to train for long distance. Qatar is a small country, 600,000 people. And [it's at] sea level."
"So the solution is for these guys to stay in Kenya, to train in Kenya. We are looking for a permanent camp during winter, then [cross country] World Championships, and then maybe again here in April and May. After that, we stay in St. Moritz [Switzerland] for a long time."
Beleke, Sihine, and Gebrselassie ran an 8k time trial at Altitude in Ethiopia at their competitive sea level pace of 26:30 pace for the 10k.
The Ethiopians and Kenyans don't travel to sea level to train. They do track training and hard running and repetitions at altitude. When they move to the U.S. they seek out the locations with altitude. There are many Kenyans living in Albuquerque, for example, because they like the altitude there for their training.
Agreed.Yep, Kenyans & Ethiopian runners will go to higher altitudes to train. Runners in Colorado even do the same.
Bob Kennedy was a typical U.S. 5k runner before he went to Kenya and trained with the Kenyans, doing the training that Koman and the others were doing. That is when he began running his fastest times, twice under 13 minutes for the 5k, not before that.
He grew up and lived at sea level, but then trained with the Kenyans in Kenya, at altitude, and at St. Moritz, at altitude. This is not living high and training low but the opposite. Kennedy lives at sea level, and traveled all the way to Kenya to train, at altitude, with the Kenyans. Then he ran 12:58 for the 5k two times.
Wetmore takes his runners up to higher altitude than Boulder for some of their training. Many of their weekend runs are above 8000 feet. And a week ago they just won another NCAA cross country championships and a second, in two more major upsets. So Wetmore believes in the benefits of training at altitude.
Deena Kastor has done considerable training in Alamosa, Colorado and Mammoth, California. Alamosa is at 7500 feet altitude. Pat Porter his training in Alamosa, Colorado when he was winning many U.S. championships in cross country, and a 4th place in the WCCC.
Tadesse Zersenay from Eritrea, age 24 and who began running at age 19, is much faster than Meb. Tadesse is the bronze medal winner in the Athens 10000 meters behind Kenenisa Bekele, Sileshi Sihine and ahead of Haile Gebrselassie in humid 86 degree temperatures. At the 2006 WCCC the Eritrean senior men's team got the silver medal, moving up from 4th the year before, and trailing by only 6 points to perennial power Kenya who got the Gold and beating a team full of Ethiopia stars by over 30 points. In the individual 12k, Tadesse Zersenay won the silver medal in 2005 and was 4th in 2006.
Wang Junxia is World Champion in the marathon, and Olympic Gold and Silver medalist in the Olympic 5 and 10000 meters. Neither of thesee events were in China. The Olympic events were in Atlanta, which is in the United States.
Atlanta is in the U.S., not in China.
I'm saying your comments about Ethiopians not breathing hard is ridiculous. Of course they are running hard, in fact much harder than do the Americans. And Americans take more drugs than any other country in the world. This is why Americans think drugs are the answer, but look into any hospital to see how well they are not working.Are you suggesting that Americans are taking the easy way out because none of them are using drugs? I can't tell what you're saying there. And I'm sure plenty of American runners are/were taking drugs.
The Ethiopians, Kenyans, Chinese and runners from other countries know the secrets are in hard work and that is why they are running the fast times that they are.
Last edited by johnlvs2run on November 29th, 2006, 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
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Citroen
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Don't bother, just stick Rupp on your ignore list (like the rest of us have).tgeldean wrote: I'm not sure if it's your goal, or if you're just naturally like this, but you're starting to piss me off. I understand that most people on this board eventually come to the same conclusion about you, but I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. Nobody likes a know-it-all, but it's really annoying when you try to put words in my mouth. To address your current bunch of crap:
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PaulS
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Heck, getting you up there had to be some hard work!FB1 wrote:I'm here at 8000 feet and let me assure you that training up here is bloody hard work!
FB1
- FB2
Erg on,
Paul Smith
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Paul Smith
www.ps-sport.net Your source for Useful Rowing Accessories and Training Assistance.
"If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask me the question."
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gouldilocks
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I have lived most of my life at altitude(5000 ft) and my personal experience with running was that I was about 7minutes quicker at sea-level for a marathon , about 1.5-2 minutes quicker over 10km at sea-level.
Athletes who have lived and trained at altitude all their lives actually have a greater blood volume and hence greater oxygen carrying capacity and that is one of the principal reasons athletes from Kenya,Ethiopia,Tanzania,Morocco, to name a few, dominate middle to long distance running.
WRT to indoor rowing, I have found the differences in my times set here in JHB and those I set while living in London show a similar fall-off ratio.
Paul G
Athletes who have lived and trained at altitude all their lives actually have a greater blood volume and hence greater oxygen carrying capacity and that is one of the principal reasons athletes from Kenya,Ethiopia,Tanzania,Morocco, to name a few, dominate middle to long distance running.
WRT to indoor rowing, I have found the differences in my times set here in JHB and those I set while living in London show a similar fall-off ratio.
Paul G
Science Schmience
I've posted my anecdotal experience, and my understanding of the science behind the "live high/train low" method as it specifically pertains to running and SHOULD pertain to rowing. Here's a link to a great piece on Peak Performance Online, specifically talking about this very topic (with a referenced study).
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0428.htm
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0428.htm
60:00 17018m / 30:00 8747m / 4:00 1251m / Half Marathon 1:15:04.7 / 10K 34:31.7 / 6K 20:37.3 / 5K 16:56.1 / 2K 6:29.6 / 1K 3:08.1 / 500m 1:31.1.
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johnlvs2run
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Casablanca, Morocco, sea level, 50 feetgouldilocks wrote:Athletes who have lived and trained at altitude all their lives actually have a greater blood volume and hence greater oxygen carrying capacity and that is one of the principal reasons athletes from Kenya,Ethiopia,Tanzania,Morocco, to name a few, dominate middle to long distance running.
Marrakech, Morocco, 1500 feet
Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, sea level, 50 feet
Dodoma, Tanzania, 3750 feet
Nairobi, Kenya, 5581 feet
Addis Abeba, Ethiopia, 8000 feet
Djibouti, sea level, 50 feet
Eritrea, sea level, 50 feet
Lisbon, Portugal, sea level, 60 feet
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
My own experience with 2k times is about a 20 second difference between what I can do at 4 thousand feet and what I can do at sea level. This involves 7 different 2k pieces at sea level over the last two years. Each one of them was much faster than my previus trials at altitude. Just about all of my training for the last three years has been at altitude, so I can't tell how much difference that makes.
One factor that puzzles me is that my longer distances, all of them done at altitude, are relatively more competitive in my category than any of my short pieces, i.e. 2k and less, that are done here.
Bob S.
One factor that puzzles me is that my longer distances, all of them done at altitude, are relatively more competitive in my category than any of my short pieces, i.e. 2k and less, that are done here.
Bob S.