Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

[left coaster]

can someone remind me how ya'll r calculating yer low pull?

edit: never mind, lol, a second of reflection and it came to me. I've never actually tried this, will probably hold off due to the weak disc in my neck. A 1 minute pull sounds interesting though. With my 'sprinter genes' I've been told that each copy creates a disadvantage for any distance past 800, considering I have 2... well.

The recent increase in shorter distances is feeling good so far, I'm back to putting on muscle again which is cool.

[hjs]

The knock that steady state gets is that it's boring or it takes too long or it trains me to be slow, which I am pretty sure can be overcome. It used to be that 20-30 minutes created an aerobic workout. Now we talk about 60-90. What I find interesting is looking at running training plans for 5K (which is clearly way longer than you are talking about). They don't seem to require the volume that we talk about here for even a 2K.

5k training for real athletes is lt lots of volume. Running is limited due to the impact, but with the 800 on the edge above is volume as main tool.

[hjs]

A point not mentioned but very important. The erg does not punish weight, it does not show relative performance but only absolute. So getting bigger and stronger is usefull, in most other sports we performance is much more related to bodymass.

Topcyclist often "improve" by getting lighter.

If we look at top powerlifters who often have trouble walking a few stairs up, they can pull a hard 500 meter. Not on fitness, but on raw brute strenght.

[G-dub]

So I guess the answer to the cardio question is "as much as you can stand" until it is no longer productive.

[mdpfirrman]

Just an observation from me. I'll never be a power lifter. My bad knee would not hold up at this point lifting the heavy weights that compound lifts like dead lifts or cleans require. Though, with that said, I'm short and squatty. Part of the reason I have such respect for guys like Greg (he's about my height and weight). I think it's an amazing accomplishment when sub 6 foot guys pull under 7 minutes on the 2K and it does require a lot of power. I've keenly noticed that a lot of the proponents of no weight lifting are usually quite high in stature with extra long arms. Of course they don't need to lift to get under 7 minutes.

Up until this thread (and the polarization thread), I was considering just doing Wolverine type workouts to build power. Now, I've reevaluated and if I do a slow row, I'm making sure that I keep the HR in the lower UT2 range. This will accomplish two things - help build power and also keep my HR low enough to work on hard pieces like sprints that I intend on adding in to my routine after a Steady State day.

Reading a lot more on 80/20 how it applies to cardio (prevention of injuries namely), I've also stumbled across those that feel like it will also help prevent injuries lifting too. I was doing a lot of low intensity weights. Now, one day a week, considering doing heavy back work with very low reps to see if I can squeeze out 5 or 10% more power. My son workouts in the same gym with me at lunch (while I'm rowing) and fortunately, there's some decent power lifters (my son is one) that I'll ask for ideas. I know there are ways to do it on the bench so you don't have to have your legs support you while you're doing the lifts (my concern being my knee buckling).

I know there are some that feel heavy weights take away from the ability to go hard on the harder intensity rowing pieces. I'd be curious how people work it in.

Good thread though. I'm enjoying getting more ideas.

[RBFC]

Just an observation from me. I'll never be a power lifter. My bad knee would not hold up at this point lifting the heavy weights that compound lifts like dead lifts or cleans require. Though, with that said, I'm short and squatty. Part of the reason I have such respect for guys like Greg (he's about my height and weight). I think it's an amazing accomplishment when sub 6 foot guys pull under 7 minutes on the 2K and it does require a lot of power. I've keenly noticed that a lot of the proponents of no weight lifting are usually quite high in stature with extra long arms. Of course they don't need to lift to get under 7 minutes.

Up until this thread (and the polarization thread), I was considering just doing Wolverine type workouts to build power. Now, I've reevaluated and if I do a slow row, I'm making sure that I keep the HR in the lower UT2 range. This will accomplish two things - help build power and also keep my HR low enough to work on hard pieces like sprints that I intend on adding in to my routine after a Steady State day.

Reading a lot more on 80/20 how it applies to cardio (prevention of injuries namely), I've also stumbled across those that feel like it will also help prevent injuries lifting too. I was doing a lot of low intensity weights. Now, one day a week, considering doing heavy back work with very low reps to see if I can squeeze out 5 or 10% more power. My son workouts in the same gym with me at lunch (while I'm rowing) and fortunately, there's some decent power lifters (my son is one) that I'll ask for ideas. I know there are ways to do it on the bench so you don't have to have your legs support you while you're doing the lifts (my concern being my knee buckling).

I know there are some that feel heavy weights take away from the ability to go hard on the harder intensity rowing pieces. I'd be curious how people work it in.

Good thread though. I'm enjoying getting more ideas.

If your knee is a limiting factor, then increasing upper body strength (along with the requisite cardio) may be your only path. Unfortunately, your knee doesn't know where the resistance it sees is coming from: with anatomical positioning the same, it can't tell if you are pushing during a rowing stroke or during a heavy barbell squat. If the load is equal, so is the stress on the joint. Therefore, you will arrive at a "maximal" safe load for your knee and take care in training (whatever kind) to avoid that threshold. You may find that your knee behaves better if you limit the angle of flexion, shortening your rowing stroke a few inches or squatting less depth with the barbell, etc. You may still be able to develop more power in the leg through some of the range of motion. If you have concerns, it would be wise to consult an orthopedic specialist for advice before proceeding.

Lee

[mdpfirrman]

Thanks Lee. Yeah, I've been through the whole routine with orthopedic surgeons / rehab. I have decent functional strength and mobility and even range of motion. So that I'm not worried about any longer (and my docs were amazed I recovered to the point I did then). Don't want to go into details but I'm a knee replacement guy in waiting (I was 40 when I had a devastating injury to it and the only reason the docs didn't do it then was my age combined with the life of the hardware before they lasted 25 years or so).

Functionally, I'm able back to doing 300 lb (roughly) leg presses OK. I know that's not a lot but for a year I couldn't do 10 lbs with my bad knee. Rowing I'm down from a 7:50 to a 7:19.1 this year. Not even in pain. It just creaks and makes a lot of popping noises. Used to be unstable as hell, now it's fairly solid (I even did trail running for a while). There is a point, though, when you know you should limit it and for me it's the real heavy stuff (like dead lifts and heavy squats).

I've been doing some Russian Kettlebell stuff and can even do Goblet squats fine. I guess I'm trying to figure out how to build power (with weights) and I'm impatient (like most of us are trying to improve our times).

[Shawn Baker]

General thoughts- do most believe Ross Love would be a sub 6 minute 2k in less than a years training if he had never engaged in strength training?

[hjs]

General thoughts- do most believe Ross Love would be a sub 6 minute 2k in less than a years training if he had never engaged in strength training?

Not enough info, depending what he done instead. No doubt he is naturaly strong guy. But for 2k you don,t that much strenght. If he had done sports in general, so been ok ish fit I think so.

[RBFC]

General thoughts- do most believe Ross Love would be a sub 6 minute 2k in less than a years training if he had never engaged in strength training?

Not a chance. It's because he has all that power that the 1:29/500m pace for sub-6:00 is possible for him. Could you train some distance for 6 months and lay off your 500m pace by 17 seconds & pull 4 of them at that speed? That's equivalently what he has done. Much respect, but he came at it from mega-powerlifting experience. Those who don't understand the extreme focus necessary for high-level lifting will not appreciate how determined he is. I notice some posters constantly talk about sprinting by referencing it to 2K, the only way they seem to frame rowing. Why do we not see this same attitude in running, where nobody wonders what Usain Bolt's 1500m is, and how much distance he should be doing? Sprints are different events, and will favor the body type that supports them. Look at milers vs. 100m guys in track: sprint events will always show that phenotype variance, regardless of sport chosen.

Lee

[hjs]

General thoughts- do most believe Ross Love would be a sub 6 minute 2k in less than a years training if he had never engaged in strength training?

Not a chance. It's because he has all that power that the 1:29/500m pace for sub-6:00 is possible for him. Could you train some distance for 6 months and lay off your 500m pace by 17 seconds & pull 4 of them at that speed? That's equivalently what he has done. Much respect, but he came at it from mega-powerlifting experience. Those who don't understand the extreme focus necessary for high-level lifting will not appreciate how determined he is. I notice some posters constantly talk about sprinting by referencing it to 2K, the only way they seem to frame rowing. Why do we not see this same attitude in running, where nobody wonders what Usain Bolt's 1500m is, and how much distance he should be doing? Sprints are different events, and will favor the body type that supports them. Look at milers vs. 100m guys in track: sprint events will always show that phenotype variance, regardless of sport chosen.

Lee

Beginning rowers with a general sports background all reach pretty, relative, high levels fast, they are already trained. Doesn,t matter much what sport. As long as they did it pretty serious.
Just like you say, 2k is not sprinting, the power Ross has is way to much even. Not needed at all for 2k.

500 Meter av plus 18 seconds is still a very big drop. It would be silly if a 1.12 500 meter man would not be able to pull 6.00

Bolt runs 10/20 seconds, not 70, silly comparison. Plus track has olympic medals everywhere. Rowing only on the 2k.

[Shawn Baker]

Henry I guess the point is because he is a 1:12 500 guy sub 6 is easy- if he were a 1:25 500m man the sub 6 would be waaaay harder- he isn't a 1:12 guy because he is weak

[RBFC]

Feel my frustration, Shawn. Then ask Ross if he has way too much power...

Lee

[RBFC]

I will add that the addition of the sprint distances to the records board may ultimately affect the distribution of which events gain popularity. CrossFit, arguably one of the most popular fitness/sports in the world, has no Olympic event. They created their own games. I'd envision C2 sprint rowing comps becoming more popular, despite the bashing from traditionalists.

Lee

[hjs]

Henry I guess the point is because he is a 1:12 500 guy sub 6 is easy- if he were a 1:25 500m man the sub 6 would be waaaay harder- he isn't a 1:12 guy because he is weak

True, but my point is that he is 1.12 guy because he in the first place has the talent to be one. 999 out of 1000 are not. Low estimate. Ofcourse he trained that talent.
If he had done another sport serious, he also would have been strong, not a strong as now but his raw talent always would have been there.

I have seen ergers come from all places, strenghtbased, cycling, etc. All those guys where pretty fast right away. The strenghtbased guys picked up endurance, the endurance guys picked up strenght.

And yes for a 1.12 guy 6.00 is "easy", but that 1.12 came not out of thin air. Don,t exactly know what his first 500 was, fast but a good bit slower still. Ross trained to that 1.12 mainly on the erg. He had drop the heavy weights due to a backproblem. Last year he also did a serie of ctc s. He took those seriously, often a bit longer, no real sprint stuff.



In short, yes his strenght helped him, but did he pull 1.12 and 6.00 on that strenght, no, he pretty seriously started erging, main focus on the short work, but also some longer work. And his sub 6 is in the run up to Boston, no doubt he takes that serious.