Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

[aharmer]

OK, here's one of the circuits...
The number after the exercise is the reps - weights need to be adjusted to what works for you!

1 bench pull 45
2 leg press 50
3 bench press 30
4 jumpies 25
5 bench pull 45
6 deep squats 30
7 push-ups 20
8 Ergometer 25
9 leg curl 30
10 leg press * 50

ausrwr, there is a lot of differing opinions on strength training. Some like very high rep systems to simulate the high reps of an erg race. Others believe you should try to improve absolute top end strength (very low rep, high weight work) in order to make the erg stroke a much smaller percentage of your total capacity. Your system falls in the middle.

For what it's worth, my strength workouts fall somewhere in the middle as well. I like to combine big movements like squats, deads or power cleans with an activity like burpees so there is never any rest, only different systems and muscles at work. Very high intensity and short. An example would be something like 12 squats, 12 burpees, 11 squats, 11 burpees, etc. down to 1 each using 150 lbs for squats. Completed for time as fast as possible. Very difficult, but not high weight that will increase my max squat much.

What do you think about the first two methods I mentioned, and what I've been doing? Was able to get out and run some hills today and do a little jumping as well up flights of stairs. So nice to be working out again! Still no erging for a few weeks I'm afraid.

[sheehc]

Some like very high rep systems to simulate the high reps of an erg race. Others believe you should try to improve absolute top end strength (very low rep, high weight work) in order to make the erg stroke a much smaller percentage of your total capacity. Your system falls in the middle.

As I learned it the complete circuit, when at peak volume, was done 5x at a steady pace that with rest took over an hour rather than as fast as possible (I understand there are variations of it though as it has made it's way around the world). If you did it once it would be middlish, but when you build up to 5 it is much more endurance based. If you want a circuit that is more in line with your thoughts try this:

4 sets of 10:
High pull
Bent over Row
Squat Thrust into Clean and Press (throw in a push up at the bottom if you can)
Full Squat
RDL
Military Press
Curl

Bar never leaves your hands, so weight is limited and it is more of an aerobic workout than strength. Ought to be done in <20'. Usually was done as an add on to 20' AT pieces but could be a stand alone if it fits your routine.

For what it's worth, I think lifting has to be tailored to the athlete. You have to look at the individual in front of you and determine what needs to be worked on. If they are lacking in strength, give them strength and power work. If they are lacking in endurance, do more circuit work of some form. If they need to control weight, avoid hypertrophy lifting. If they have great strength under the iron but not on the water, use bungees/tennis balls/low rating/etc.....

[TomR]

You can do almost all the strength work you need on the erg, using low rate and high drag.

Weight training allows you to develop structural balance, but is there any reason to believe that weight circuits or complexes are superior for developing rowing specific endurance?

In the off season, lifting low rep, heavy weights of basic lifts is a sound way to build strength, but I think it is difficult to do serious strength training while at the same time training for competitive rowing. So once you're on the water, the heavy weights are likely to hold you back. I'm an old guy, and I simply do not recover quickly enough from heavy lifting to do the rowing required to build endurance and hold up to tough intervals.

Frankly, I've never understood the use of exercises like the high pull or bench pull. Keep it simple, do your basic lifts and, if you want a rowing motion, just do the basic bent rows. If you've got the flexibility and know what you're doing, do power cleans.

[jliddil]

At least in recreational runners in a recent study they found:

Int J Sports Med :
DOI: 10.1055/s-0029-1243639

In conclusion, the findings of this study show that both maximal and explosive strength training performed concurrently with endurance training are more effective in improving strength, power and muscular activation in recreational endurance runners than concurrent circuit and endurance training.

[mikvan52]

I'm beginning to become less apt to suggest specific weight routines for people of all ages and varying goals.

Being a highly trained person approaching 60, I wonder if my peers really do increase strength that much w/ weight routines and the like.
If they do, how is it that they are all slowing down relatively quickly. I am tempted to conclude that strength drops off faster than aerobic capacity..

Any take on this from any of you?

[jliddil]

I'm beginning to become less apt to suggest specific weight routines for people of all ages and varying goals.

Being a highly trained person approaching 60, I wonder if my peers really do increase strength that much w/ weight routines and the like.
If they do, how is it that they are all slowing down relatively quickly. I am tempted to conclude that strength drops off faster than aerobic capacity..

Any take on this from any of you?

You can increase strength in older adults via weight training. But muscle strength loss (sarcopenia) seems to really increase after around 65. I'm not finding any good studies yet that really looked at both in comparison. There are studies that show strength increases but no V02max increase with training in older adults.

On what do you base that the strength vs aerobic capacity decreases faster? Decreased rowing/erging times or distance covered in X amount of time? The may be slowing down due to less strength AND an ability to utilize oxygen. I think there a many variables at play. And we are talking about a small group of athletes.

Of course there are those who believe they can continue to get faster and stronger if the just train correctly.

JD

[mikvan52]

You can increase strength in older adults via weight training.

But can you increase 1k and 2k speed (IOW: 1k & 2k "erg-strength")
Let's say an erg or OTW athlete keeps his or her aerobic power the same between age 55 and 56... Why is it that in these strength events (1k and 2k) their times get slower?

I am only "tempted" to conclude that strength falls off faster than aerobic capacity.... I only have the experience of watching athletes age and comparing their times while making incomplete analyses of their standard training routines. I do not have any scientific support for my contention.

My suspicion is that if older men spent less time in the gym (around the weight plates) and more time in the seat doing long steady state developing better form that they would turn in better erg scores at 1k and 2k than they would have if they budgeted their time the other way around.

Also: 220 leg presses ( a 2k on the water ) is not similar to doing 3 x15 reps of leg presses on a weight rack...
(I do know that developing explosive strenght w/ short reps is important... I just don't think that it makes a 55 yr old guy faster in a sustained max event that is about 7 minutes long.

What I'm saying here does not apply to those on steroids or those who are younger.
I AM NOT against weight training .. I just think it's often over-done by the golden-oldies.

That being said... I may try to disprove my supposition by experimenting doing more weight routines each week. I'll begin late this fall.

One other thing : In my opinion: We older guys should do what we like more than what is necessarily best for our speed.

[gregsmith01748]

With regard to performance changes vs age...

As someone who is aging (at a seemingly accelerating rate), I have a vested interest. It seems like there is a pretty good resource available to us in the online log book.

Is it possible to access the rankings of 2010 (or previous years) as a complete file or database? It would not be hard to do some statistical analysis of rowers of different ages to compare degradation at different distances. Wouldn't that give you a first order view of whether aerobic capacity or power is more severely impacted? I know it wouldn't be conclusive, but it might give an idea of how to look more deeply.

I'll have to look at the nonathlon website, I think that the data there was based upon concept rankings.

- Greg

[ausrwr]

My thoughts on the loss of strength / capacity as you get older aren't well formed.
I'm pretty sure Bengt Saltin did a study on the effects of aging some years ago and found that it was explosiveness that dropped away more quickly.

As someone noted above, that's where the logbooks come into play. I'm a hypocrite for suggesting this, but looking at logbooks for loss of strength / aerobic capacity may be the best way to address the issue - if you are losing strength at a higher rate, schedule an extra strength session in if that's your limiting factor.

[TomR]

My experience is that I could get stronger but doing so didn't make me faster, because I could not recover to train as much on the erg and aerobic capacity diminished. As I said in a previous post, I became easier to catch, but harder to kill when you caught me.

I'm lifting less, and rowing more. I expect my rowing times to improve. If I keep at it, my times may rival those of an elite high school girl.

[NavigationHazard]

Speaking from experience, I can say that C2 rankings data doesn't lend itself well to cross-sectional analysis. Most people don't rank the full range of distances, and even when they do you have no good way of knowing things like rating, % effort, and/or where the rowers were in their training schedules when they did the pieces. That's also true of the Nonathlon: was that 5000m piece flat out, or did s/he mail it in at r20 just to post a score?

More to the point, plenty of evidence suggests that the single biggest determinant of 2k rowing performance on an erg is your ability to sustain power at VO2max. That's going to be a function of power (strength) + endurance. My strong suspicion is that the age-associated rate of decline in either/both is highly idiosyncratic and not easily subject to generalization. To put it rather simply, where you once were in relation to your genetic potential probably has a strong bearing on where you are now and where you are likely to be in a few years, other things like training equal. And since not everyone is the same present age, nor starts with the same underlying physiological traits, nor achieves the same relative levels of performance against potential, nor trains the same way for equal amounts of time, it follows (IMO) that general strategies for coping with age-related decline probably aren't going to help much in individual cases. What's appropriate for rower A may well be inappropriate for rower B. For that matter, what's appropriate for rower A now may well be inappropriate five years down the road.

I realize that's not very encouraging....

[TomR]

. . . general strategies for coping with age-related decline probably aren't going to help much in individual cases. What's appropriate for rower A may well be inappropriate for rower B. For that matter, what's appropriate for rower A now may well be inappropriate five years down the road.

I realize that's not very encouraging....

It's perfect, Nav.

It means that I can reasonably argue that whatever training I am doing at any particular moment is both appropriate to my particular genetic make-up and my age and currently level of conditioning.

[jliddil]

I realize that's not very encouraging....

Well we are back to what are we "training". I read a bunch of articles today and came to the same conclusions as nav. For me it has always been about quality of life as I grow older. So erging along with lifecycle and weights help balance out things. Numerous studies show as we age loss of bone density, muscle power and V02max. So a variety of exercise with weights will help you delay the aging process. It depends for some reading this at what stage of life you are in. When you are young competition is more important than later where quality of life matters.

[hjs]

http://world-masters-athletics.org/records/outdoor-men

For those who like statistics.
Difficult to compare though, the trowing events alter the weight, the hurdles get lower, one thing I do see, at least think to see, is:

If an event is not very explosive of techniquely difficult men can stay quite good at it up until 55 ish, after that all events fall rapidly. If an event is hard on the joints, like the jump events and hurdles, the results get less good a lot sooner.

For instance:

Man 55 100 meter 11.44 plus 19.6 % above Wr 9.56
Marathon man 55 2.25 min plus 16% above Wr 2.05

Triple jump man 55 13.55 34% below Wr 18.16
highjump 55 1.84 33% below Wr 2.45


Roughly looking at this you could say, strenght and endurance stay relative ok, but explosiveness and power are getting less good.
Looking at myself, age 43, my natural strenght is still ok, my endurance also but my joints are very poor, so I can,t train my power well anymore, so that is a nowhere near my best in my younger days.


No doubt someone will come along and speak against everything I say here

[chgoss]

I was starting to think that my twice a week weight training was perhaps doing more harm than good (to my rowing) despite having made some fairly good progress in it(my max dead lift is now 265!).
then
I happened to look at my 2009 total meters.. 2.4m , last year was 3.4m
so, think I found the real problem with my struggling performances.. just need to row a little more

I really enjoy the weights, I have a training partner at work, we go monday and friday.