The Road To Boston 2008

Rocket Roy · Post by **Rocket Roy** » January 16th, 2008, 10:08 am

That is great going Rick! I can see you getting pretty darn good at these 2k in the next 6 weeks.
And you'll have absolutely no fear of doing it cos you will have done so many by then.

Rowmaniac · Post by **Rowmaniac** » January 16th, 2008, 11:42 am

Carla, those are really good splits for 5 reps! I hope you treated yourself to some more Dunkin' Donuts for all the hard work! That is a lot of great paced meters in the bank.

I have some new and unfriendly sore muscles from the weight training. I am off to the boathouse to sit in a dock box and practice my stroke without actually having to pull anything. It's the closest thing we have to the tanks out here on the west coast. I am OTW for 2 hours today, but I need some extra blade work practice. God knows I am not getting it on the erg. I'll do a 2 x 18' UT1 later today. I am hoping it feels easy given these intervals of late.

I am really longing for a long, steady row at a nice even pace. Yesterday I would have traded a half marathon for that workout. I am starting to wake up in the night and think about erging. I take it as a bad sign. Yes, Tom, I put enough pressure on myself. I still consider rowing anything under 7:20 as a treasured accomplishment. Whether I can get it all together and keep it all together to row it in 5 weeks remains to be seen.

Bob, good luck down in Long Beach. I will never know the dilemma of going LW or HWT in a race. I suppose having to intentionally worry about 2-3 pounds pre-race might be annoying (don't know how close you are), but how great for you to be so competitive in both classes. Of course, a dinner of air and lettuce the night before the race would probably not be good carbo loading!

Trevor, I apologize if you've posted this already, but what plan are you following? Your point about over interval training is certainly a valid one. I'm just curious. I agree about the often repeated 2K time trials. Done too often they would never give a good read on a tapered 2K race time. Just MHO.

tdekoekkoek · Post by **tdekoekkoek** » January 16th, 2008, 11:44 am

Yankeerunner wrote: Last night I was happy to still be on target for improving my 2km every two days;

IMO, trying to improve your 2k every 2 days is asking for trouble. You cannot possibly be at your best that often. The body needs time to recover and if nothing else you need much more aerobic work. In general I find people in this forum too focused on hitting times and doing intervals. Intervals are great, but you only need them twice a week until probably the last 4 weeks.

My own approach is to keep building volume and strength and I am now starting to add intensity and intervals. I do a very little AN work just to add some spice. I will start doing much more AN work in the last 3 weeks.

Now to be honest, I'm way behind where I should be to be competitive in Boston, but I'm making progress every week. Plus I'm going to need a base for spring, summer and fall racing so an over-emphasis on speed just for Crash Bs could hurt my OTW rowing.

Today 2*20' :
1:50.7: 5420 @ 22 spm
1:52.3: 5342 @ 20-25spm

Cheers,

Trevor

Kinley · Post by **Kinley** » January 16th, 2008, 7:35 pm

The Road to Newburyport ......

I haven't done any actual "training" this year, just long low-quality slogs for the Holiday & January challenges. Tried a 2000m piece today to gauge pacing for Rick's NE2kC.

2k = 8:08.3 (2:02.1)

4th - 2:00:0
3rd - 2:01.7
2nd - 2:03.0
1st - 2:03.5

I rowed with the display on average pace. Afterward, I was feeling fairly chipper, so I rowed 500 meters with the display on watts: 204.9w = 1:59.5

Still feeling chipper, so another 500 meters at 209.0w = 1:58.8

Then another, 219.7w =1:56.8

Thus confirming that I allow the *idea* of fast (for me) splits to intimidate me and sabotage my efforts. Obviously I underperformed the 2k as I had energy left over. I should row more often on watts to circumvent that sub 2:00 dread (which in my lazy old age seems to be creeping up to a dread of sub 2:05).

See some of you Sunday.

Kinley

TomR · Post by **TomR** » January 16th, 2008, 8:27 pm

Did a modest AN session.

8x45 sec/1 min rest

avg 1.47.8

Goal was to work on rate (31-32) and technique and reduce the dancing of the erg. Seemed a moderately useful exercise, and didn't tire me greatly. Depending on how much residual weariness I feel, I may increase to 10 or 12 reps next time I do this.

Rowmaniac · Post by **Rowmaniac** » January 16th, 2008, 8:59 pm

Hi, Kinley. Chipper, eh? I think you had a lot of useful energy left. Good for you for treading into the territory of "Wonder what more I can do???" Chipper is not exactly how I feel today. I'm tired, but I think it's a good tired.

I rowed OTW for about 90 minutes today in a nice 4. It was warm enough to wear (okay, you people who live close enough to go to Rick's in Newburyport on Sunday will not like hearing this) JL shorts and a tee shirt. I was in heaven!

Better than the warm sunny weather was a boat that was filled with 3 rowers who I believe all rower better than I, which made me want to work hard. It was a bit more of a workout than I've been getting OTW, but worth every stroke. We truly had a good row.

I came home and had a 2 x 18 UT1 workout planned, but did NOT want to do anything that resembled an interval so I just decided to row the whole darned thing without a break and it was fine. I felt a bit tired, but I am still sore from all the new upper body weight training and a fair number of workouts in the past few days.

I hope someone can take a few pics on Sunday so I can put some names with faces? I wish I lived close enough to participate. Oh wait, that would mean I have to torture myself with a 2K. Oops, check that. You guys are going to do great!

seat5 · Post by **seat5** » January 17th, 2008, 12:54 am

Wow, so much going on on this thread all of a sudden! Rick, it's hard to believe you are even injured with what you are doing but obviously everything is relative and it's not up to your usual. Is that bandage one of those self sticky aces or a velcro thing? It looks bothersome.

Trevor, your splits are great and you are still holding back--it should be great to hear your reports in a few weeks when you let the horses run.

Bob, I hate to hear you sounding discouraged! It sounds like you are due for a serious break from the erg. I can't remember, did you take the summer off? I know I get awfully stale on it if I do it year round, but if I take a few months completely off I come back ready to work at it again. I don't know what the long term effects are--but I enjoy it a lot more if I don't get to really being sick of it.

Kinley, you are going to surprise yourself on Sunday, you had LOTS left and that 2:00 "barrier" is so totally mental. You did 1500 more afterwards. I hope you feel encouraged and psyched!!

Deb, wasn't the not split up ut1 nice? I was going to do the same yesterday but was so scared of the 4 (5

) x 5 that I did it in the 2 intervals. And you are going to row under 7:20!

Hey Tom, how was your dancing erg today? You didn't tell if it was still jiggiting about. I love my black rubber mats--they are the sort that fit together like puzzle pieces & you can get them at Sears.

Roy--11 days to Manchester--that 77.1k's is your weight--at first I thought you meant you had done 77 1K pieces yesterday

Just not used to thinking of weight in k's!

Can't decide what to do tomorrow, the 3 x 10 AT and take Friday off to rest for the race Sunday...yes I think so....

ranger · Post by **ranger** » January 17th, 2008, 3:36 am

As it turns out, I think, for mild/UT levels of work, at least, it is not watts, and therefore pace, that establishes the equivalences between other exercises (like stepping) and erging but energy expended, calorie cost.

That is, to me, going along at 1250 calories/hour on the erg feels pretty much like going along at 1250 calories/hour on the stepper.

I would guess this is also true for erging and other exercises--riding a stationary bike, running on a treadmill, riding an elliptical, etc.

For this level of work, then, the question really is: How much effort can you comfortably and stably expend for long periods of time?

How efficient are you, physiologically?

I am now doing long warm ups on the erg using the calorie counter, as I do on the stepper.

In these warm ups, as in my stepping, the issue is not speed but just stability, intensity, and total expenditure of effort.

If I can, each day, I would like to have these erging warm up run exactly parallel to my stepping warm downs.

1200-1250 calories per hour is the target, with 1000 calories/hour as a kind of lower limit and 1500 calories/hour as a kind of upper limit.

1250 calories per hour is about 320 watts on the stepper I use.

1250 calories per hour is about 280 watts/1:48 pace on the erg.

Lately, I have been doing about 100 minutes a day of very stable UT2 warm down/recovery at 1200-1250 calories/hour on the stepper.

In this stepping routine I expend 2000 calories.

It would also be nice to be able to do a comparable amount and intensity of warm up on the erg.

The only other requirement to secure this parallel between erging and stepping, I think, is that the rowing should be done well, that is, with good technique, and therefore at an appropriate stroking power

The major rowing plans (IP plan and WP) also enforce this caveat by stipulating stroke rates for UT2/UT1/Level 4 rowing.

That is, to be comparable to the stepping, this rowing should be done at 20-24 spm.

Personally, I like the midpoint in this range: 22 spm.

At 1250 calories/hour, this makes the stroking power of this rowing neither very light nor very heavy--about 12.5 SPI.

ranger

Yankeerunner · Post by **Yankeerunner** » January 17th, 2008, 9:13 am

Hi Trevor, I understand the warning, and it's one that I would normally give to others. I prefer to do a longer program with a proper mix of workouts, such as the UK's Interactive Program from 13-26 weeks out. It's just that I'm currently feeling that if I don't attempt a highrisk/high reward routine that I won't be doing anything on Sunday or at CRASH-B's that would be more than a workout anyway, and I'd rather be more aggressive than that at those two events. As recently as October I did a 7:04 before getting injured, so the 7:31 that I'm currently down to is still far less than an AN or even TR level. By doing them every two days I hope to 'feel out' just how hard I can attempt to go on race day.

Good to see the others getting properly nervous (in a good way) for Sunday. It should be a good day amongst friends as usual. I'll try my hardest to get photos of forumites to post here.

Last night I added 100m to my Monday workout:
1714m 8:00.0 2:17.2 21spm (warmup)
0600m 2:03.6 1:43.0 36spm
1682m 8:00.0 2:22.6 19spm (cooldown)

121df, ribs wrapped, 53 degrees F, Meatloaf's 'Bat Out Of Hell' on the CD player

This morning it was back to the Hard Nock's Gym at 5:30am for the usual.

0772m 04:00.0 2:36.7 21spm (warmup)
5000m 21:14.6 2:07.5 24spm
0799m 04:00.0 2:30.1 20spm (cooldown)

S10MPS with the monitor covered except for meters, ribs wrapped, 95df. The ribs were sore until about 2500m into the piece then felt fine. This is progress since they stayed sore the whole way when doing the same thing on Tuesday.

I feel a bit less sorry for myself after hearing Dave Nock's tale. He was on the erg beside me and told me that he might not be able to compete on Sunday. Since last March he's had what he assumed was a groin pull from doing weights. But it persisted much longer than groin pulls usually do, so he finally had the proverbial battery of tests. Turns out that he has a tumor the size of a deck of cards that will be removed on February 1st. In true Hard Nock fashion though, he hopes to be recovered enough to compete at the CRASH-B's!

Mrs. Nock probably won't be happy about that plan.

Rowmaniac · Post by **Rowmaniac** » January 17th, 2008, 12:28 pm

Ranger, is there a good chart/calculator/formula you can share to help me calculate calories per hour on the erg? I know that body weight of the rower should be a piece of the formula, so I've always discounted those listed on the spin bikes, etc., because how do they know how much I weigh? I take it you are trying to row LWT? Must be nice to be in that class and be so strong.

Carla, yes doing the UT1 in one session was better for a nice change. I swear I hate dropping that handle knowing I have to pick it up again. I am not the interval woman!

So how many folks usually go to the 2K in Newburyport? That's a different kind of party --- BYOE-Bring Your Own Erg. How fun. I am still waiting to hear if our club is actually going to sponsor it's annual 2K indoor on January 26. Last year it was great fun on the same day as the CRASH Bs. I've logged over 1,000,000 meters since then, so I was sure looking forward to putting up a new score and perhaps rowing a club record. (Which would be wonderful, considering that many people here think I need a 12 step program for my erg addiction. Maybe I should respond by sending them to this forum so they will know I am not nearly so intense and dedicated to the erg as some of you are!)

Nosmo · Post by **Nosmo** » January 17th, 2008, 2:41 pm

Rowmaniac wrote:Ranger, is there a good chart/calculator/formula you can share to help me calculate calories per hour on the erg? I know that body weight of the rower should be a piece of the formula, so I've always discounted those listed on the spin bikes, etc., because how do they know how much I weigh?

The body weight of the cyclist on the spin machines hardly matters at all. Calories expended is determined solely by the amount of energy expended (watts time time) and the efficiency of the athlete for a given exercise. The weight of the athlete only contributes indirectly through the athlete's basic metabolic rate which is not a simple relationship to weight.

For running, the stepping machine, and rowing weight does matter since the entire athlete is being moved. The stepping and bike machines can provide the best estimate of calories burned because it measures (almost) all the work being done, and it just has to make an estimate about efficiency.
However, I've seen different stepping machines indicate vastly different calories burns and watts produced, so the accuracy and quality clearly varies quite a bit.

The erg does have a display for Calories burned however, it is an estimate based on a test of one athlete. The formula used is not very accurate and it does not take into account the stroke rating or the athletes weight. It is probably OK as a rough guide but you could do better by taking into account the stroke rating and rowers weight.

The formula that C2 uses for calories burned indicates to me that they do not take calories very seriously. Personally I don't think anyone else should either.

ranger · Post by **ranger** » January 17th, 2008, 4:00 pm

The formula that C2 uses for calories burned indicates to me that they do not take calories very seriously. Personally I don't think anyone else should either.

Yea, I'm sure these numbers about caloric expenditure are not accurate at all, for either stepping or rowing.

Nonetheless, if they were, the _concept_, as a guide to training, is very interesting and useful, I think.

Given the enormous power that is possible on the erg together with the aerobic cost of applying this power, much of what you can do rowing, especially on long training rows, is just a matter of how much effort you can expend at a certain level of strain (e.g. % HRR) for a certain prolonged period.

Perhaps it is something odd about my own capacities and experience, but it seems to me that caloric cost per hour is perhaps the best way to measure this effort, no matter what you are doing.

As I mentioned, for me, stepping at 1250 calories per hour feels like rowing at 1250 calories per hour.

Things like watts don't yield the same equivalences.

1250 calories an hour is about 280 watts on the erg but 320 watts on the stepper, a pretty big difference.

ranger

tdekoekkoek · Post by **tdekoekkoek** » January 17th, 2008, 5:55 pm

Deborah: I'm not following a strict written plan. I did look into the interactive plan you guys are following, but found it didn't suite me right now. I am following somewhat the SERIOUS framework (it's a book). But basically I know from experience that 80% is just getting on the darn machine and putting in miles. That and some seriously painful AT pieces make me the strongest. Of course I will have to do a lot more AN work in the coming weeks.

YankeeR: I understand what you're trying to do. That's sort of the approach I did last winter. I did a lot of sprinting, and it was working to my advantage. However on race day I didn't feel well at all and ended up pulling 12 seconds slower than I did by myself 2 weeks prior to the race.

See you on Sunday in Newburyport!

Anyway, back to the erg for my 2nd 15 minute piece!

Cheers,

Trevor

Nosmo · Post by **Nosmo** » January 17th, 2008, 7:00 pm

ranger wrote: As I mentioned, for me, stepping at 1250 calories per hour feels like rowing at 1250 calories per hour.

Things like watts don't yield the same equivalences.

1250 calories an hour is about 280 watts on the erg but 320 watts on the stepper, a pretty big difference.

ranger

The C2 watts is only measuring the power put into the flywheel. The stepper (if it was well designed) could be an accurate measurement of the actual watts expended by the athlete.

Someone did power measurements using a strain gauge in the chain of the erg and concluded that the erg was underestimating power by about 25 watts. If you add 25 to the 280, then add some more for moving your body back and forth on the slide then you are much closer to 320. The stepper calories could be fairly accurate. The C2 calories would only be accurate for the conditions the formula was tested for. i.e. a similar sized person rowing at a similar rating.

Your observation may be coincidence. There isn't any reason a priori why the calorie expenditure would be better then watts.

Rowmaniac · Post by **Rowmaniac** » January 17th, 2008, 8:36 pm

Thanks to you both for the info. I haven't really bothered too much with calorie burning rates, but the comments made me curious.

I will take a look at the calorie info on my PM3 and see what I (perhaps) am burning at the splits I row. I think I'm just happy that I now burn more calories after the rowing b/c my RMR is higher with more muscle than I had a year ago.

My Model D was perhaps the best purchase I've ever made.