Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

[winniewinser]

Had the same issue when I first started.....tail bone rubbing on the seat and made worse with excessive sweating. What worked for me was rowing in Under Armour compression shorts as the seams are not up the crack . Also used Chamois Buttr to stop the rubbing and wear a headband to stop too much sweat from getting to that area. Finally I also bought a Citius Remex seat pad which also helped with butt aches......pricey but worth every penny.

I started wearing Skins compression clothing in c.2010 when i started erging, found they helped. But have started wearing long leg/sleeve compression clothing (Lafroi ATM) as i find that when rowing for a long time that other areas chaff for example/inner arms/legs.

Glad im not th eonly one!!!

Yep, I feel (felt) your pain! .....at it's worst it was a nightmare to shower and even sit down

[GlennUk]

Yep, I feel (felt) your pain! .....at it's worst it was a nightmare to shower and even sit down

Not sure if it takes others the same way, ut some of the blisters wold bleed so were obviously quite sore (and no i didn't bother looking in a mirror!!), but once i was on the erg rowing, i generally forgot abbot them.

The issues were afterwards showering, siting

[DavidA]

Yep, I feel (felt) your pain! .....at it's worst it was a nightmare to shower and even sit down

Not sure if it takes others the same way, ut some of the blisters wold bleed so were obviously quite sore (and no i didn't bother looking in a mirror!!), but once i was on the erg rowing, i generally forgot abbot them.

The issues were afterwards showering, siting

Boy does this all sound familiar!
I try very hard to make sure that any clothing on my tush doesn't have seams in the wrong areas, and won't bunch up.

David

[Elizabeth]

I don't have much experience with sports bras.

But, I have plenty of experience with chaffing! When it's humid and/or sessions will be more than about an hour in length, I apply generous helpings of corn starch. It works like a miracle for me!

I think this has been helping - thank you! It's hard to know for sure until my base level of irritation heals up, but it's seemed generally better, and I'm going to keep doing it.

I ask my wife, she runs, fortunately I dont need such support, yet !!!

Running is fine for me! Even training for a half marathon, it didn't crop up. My feet were a hot mess, though - at least with erging I haven't lost any toe nails.

[GlennUk]

Boy does this all sound familiar!
I try very hard to make sure that any clothing on my tush doesn't have seams in the wrong areas, and won't bunch up.

David

For those who use something in addition to the standard seat, i would always make sure that it doesn't move, whilst it may seem obvious if your rowing for more than an hour (possibly less in sme cases).

For short distances any movement is unlikely to make a huge difference (assuming its not a major movement), however with my Citius seat pad, im pretty sure the movement was probably only a few mm out of line which could became painful after only a couple of hours if i was unlucky to the extent that i have had to abandon some exercises due to excruciating pain.

I feel the same way about sems and anything else between me and the seat.

Since 'fixing' the seat pad in place i have had far fewer occasions where i have had any issues, im close to the end of the plan leading up to a FM and i feel far more confident about everyhitng, including the seat. Which all being well allows me to focus on doing my best in the next few weeks.

I doubt ill be breaking any records, but hopeful of making a good fist of it.

[GlennUk]

Im coming to the end of my FM training programme, i have reached week 14 and looking at the tapering plan, means the FM would be the day after being out on a client day (as the host I have no choice but to go and be the host!), so i decided to redo a week of the training plan then taper and do the FM the week after the original date.

Anyway to the point, the Eddie FLetcher plan sets rests between intervals at 18spm, HTR 70% HRmax and at what is called default marathon pace. Historically i have just 'paddled' not quite aimlessly but never seriously concentrated on 18spm 70% etc.

In truth I feel that previously i had used it to recxover and thought by keeping my HR las low as possible in between reps, that would be beneficial in the following rep. over the past month i have adhered to the guidance in the training plan.

However, i did the session tonight 4 x 20min r 3:00 at various spm/HR and target paces and looking back at the same session conducted three weeks ago i covered over 600m more than the last time i did this session.

Also its worth noting that the previous sessions all either one or both of the target spm/HR wer above the targets, today all but on were spot on, with one rep at 1bpm above target.

Discussing this change in performance with my wife, i think that the temps in the UK having moderated signfciantly since three weeks ago, would explain most of the peforamnce change. However, she has not seen similar changes (she runs daily on a treadmill and has not noticed a significant change over the same period) which got me wondering whether there is likley to be something else going on?

If i was just starting out on the training plan i would not necessarily expect dramatic changes (i've been erging consistently since 2020 and using the same training approach since Jan 2021) but not in the final few weeks.

Thoughts welcome,

[MPx]

Its an interesting set of stats and differences Glenn....but my first thoughts are just that today just happens to be a good day for you. You may be much more consistent than me, but I find RPE very different on many of my regular SS pieces and while I typically hit the pace/time close to spot on my HR can vary by 10bpm. If I was as governed as you by HR that would lead me to very different pace/time on virtually every outing....

[Dangerscouse]

IME, there are so many variables with long distances. I've had a terrible session, and the next day had a great session. Inexplicably, my FM PB was done the day after a 60 min PB, so sometimes there is no logic other than it was just a good day.

I have often looked for patterns and trends in consecutive sessions, but I honestly think there is sometimes some discernable trend, and other times there's many other subtle and overt considerations at play eg, temperature, stress, recovery, diet and just general capacity to work hard.

I'd also not downplay the importance of confidence, so if if it feels like you're peaking, you need to fully embrace that too, and don't over analyse it.

[GlennUk]

Its an interesting set of stats and differences Glenn....but my first thoughts are just that today just happens to be a good day for you. You may be much more consistent than me, but I find RPE very different on many of my regular SS pieces and while I typically hit the pace/time close to spot on my HR can vary by 10bpm. If I was as governed as you by HR that would lead me to very different pace/time on virtually every outing....

Thanks something i would say is that the change in pace have occurred over a couple of weeks, mid August onwards. With my pace for a given HR/spm increasing, the difference for example at 20spm @80% HRmax, my pace has gone from a consistent c. 2:21.x to under 2:18.x for a given duration, which is why i am surprised.

But I take your point about the body varying.

[GlennUk]

IME, there are so many variables with long distances. I've had a terrible session, and the next day had a great session. Inexplicably, my FM PB was done the day after a 60 min PB, so sometimes there is no logic other than it was just a good day.

I have often looked for patterns and trends in consecutive sessions, but I honestly think there is sometimes some discernable trend, and other times there's many other subtle and overt considerations at play eg, temperature, stress, recovery, diet and just general capacity to work hard.

I'd also not downplay the importance of confidence, so if if it feels like you're peaking, you need to fully embrace that too, and don't over analyse it.

I'd also not downplay the importance of confidence, so if if it feels like you're peaking, you need to fully embrace that too, and don't over analyse it.

Thanks Stuart,

oddly i had felt less confident about my PB attempt recently, last year in the lead up to my long row, i did two marathons as part of the training, all under 3.5hrs with the best at 2:25.3. These were restricted to 85% HRmax/20spm, and i had hoped to go somewhat quicker than that.

The 2:21.x pace at restricted 80%HR/20spm didn't give me that much confidence that I could go much quicker, especially when for some of the reps i was over HR or spm, or both suggesting my endurance was not as solid as i hoped.

However, the past couple of weeks things seem to be coming together in a way that I would not have imagined, the paces at a given HR have improved signfciantly with the proof will of course be in the pudding, and i have been feeling much more confident.

For example last nights session was 4 x 20min, r3 results as follows

20min @ 20spm, 80%HRmax target pace 2:18.x actual pace 2:15.7
20min @ 26spm, 90% HRmax target pace 2:08.x actual pace 2:06.4
20min @ 22spm, 85%HRmax target pace 2:18.x actual pace 2:17.0
20min @ 18spm 75%HRmax target pace 2:35.x actual pace 2:29.7

The plan is to mange effort by HR/spm in stages over the distance, who knows where ill end up. I doubt very much it will be less than 3hrs but feel more confident that i can take a few minutes of the previous times.

I have about 2.5 weeks to go based on the plan, i have adjusted to fit in with the rest of my life, so am re-doing week 14 of the plan, then its 'tapering' for the 'event'.

[putridp]

I bought an official C2 seat pad but found it worse than the bare standard seat. Perhaps I should give it more time but coming from a road cycling background I'm adapted to the principle of allowing the sit bones to bare the brunt of the pressure and it just takes time for them to adjust. Padding just spreads pressure to where it shouldn't be.

Having said that, posture on the rowing seat seems to make a big difference. Sometimes I can feel a gluteus muscle body rolling uncomfortably underneath my seat bones during the stroke cycle, whereas mostly it feels okay. I often worry I have a weak lower back on the rower and try to hold a better lower back posture but when doing 5000+ strokes it's impossible to do anything different to your bodies natural movement (sometimes when I row eyes-closed I feel myself hitting the flywheel cage - over-reaching has always been a fault of mine).

[GlennUk]

Yesterday was my 1st serious attempt at a FM distance, i had done two full FMs in training for my 116k, but they were both restricted HR/SPM.

As i've been following the Eddie Fletch plan i knew what i was supposed to (supposed being the operative word there).

The plan was to keep my HR to c 85% for the first half of the distance, then allow it to rise towards 90% for the remainder, the pace essentially falling out of that. I was supposed to keep it 'well below' the 90% mark for the 1st half, so i set a personal benchmark of not more than 87.5 HRmax.

Based on my training i had hoped for c.2:12.0 - 2:14.0 pace/500m, but obviously it would be dictated on the day by my body.

Early dinner the evening before to allow my body to deal with it before i sat on the erg, oiled the chain, cleaned the rail, prepped my drink, pulled up my prompt sheet for HR/spm schedule and off i set. Only to see my blood DF was not set properly!!!

Stopped and re-set everyhitng then started, felt really good, so much so that i was pulling much better pace and feeling comfortable.

Looking at the data from Ergdata today i can see that my HR was above 87.5% of HRmax for c.65% of the 1st 14k which clear is less than ideal.
The story was pretty similar for the next 14K with me spending 59% over the 87.5% threshold I had imposed on myself.

Unsurprisingly, with 7500m to go, my body said 'are you bloody joking' and i had to slow down somewhat, and over that last 7.5K i average 86% of HRmax, and my pace dropped off somewhat.

At this stage i though i may have to abandon, but i shut my eyes and counted every stroke, counting off each 500m, finally coming home with an average pace 2.16.2 in a time of 3hours 11 minutes and 41.1 seconds.

I was somewhat disappointed, not just with the time, but with how badly i have paced myself, or rather how i didn't pace myself. However, i have learned something, analysis the data this AM it appears my average effort was c.88% HRmax across the marathon.

I have worked out the time spent at more than my self imposed target of 87.5% for the 1st half and find that i spent 66% of the marathon at a HR of 87.% or above with a max of 93% on numerous occasions.

When i sat on the erg, i wasn't confident in my physical or mental ability. It is clear post the row, that there isn't much wrong with either department, and with proper control i see no reason why i cannot go somewhat quicker next time. Not saying anything to challenge for top spots on my age range, but definitely quicker than i achieved.

Im going to take a break for a few months form endurance rowing and tackle my sprint distances for a bit of variety, then back to endurance rowing after that. another marathon beckons!!!

[Dangerscouse]

Looking at the data from Ergdata today i can see that my HR was above 87.5% of HRmax for c.65% of the 1st 14k which clear is less than ideal.
The story was pretty similar for the next 14K with me spending 59% over the 87.5% threshold I had imposed on myself.

Unsurprisingly, with 7500m to go, my body said 'are you bloody joking' and i had to slow down somewhat, and over that last 7.5K i average 86% of HRmax, and my pace dropped off somewhat.

At this stage i though i may have to abandon, but i shut my eyes and counted every stroke, counting off each 500m, finally coming home with an average pace 2.16.2 in a time of 3hours 11 minutes and 41.1 seconds.

I was somewhat disappointed, not just with the time, but with how badly i have paced myself, or rather how i didn't pace myself. However, i have learned something, analysis the data this AM it appears my average effort was c.88% HRmax across the marathon.

I have worked out the time spent at more than my self imposed target of 87.5% for the 1st half and find that i spent 66% of the marathon at a HR of 87.% or above with a max of 93% on numerous occasions.

When i sat on the erg, i wasn't confident in my physical or mental ability. It is clear post the row, that there isn't much wrong with either department, and with proper control i see no reason why i cannot go somewhat quicker next time. Not saying anything to challenge for top spots on my age range, but definitely quicker than i achieved.

First of all, congratulations on the FM. We both know that your strategy has let you down and you could gave gone faster, and I find it fascinating that you can hold such a high HR for so long. My FM PB was 148 as an average ie circa 80%, and it didn't reach circa 90% until the last 1k. I know I couldn't keep going with an average of 88%.

Your mental fortitude and fitness will both have benefited massively from this, as today's challenge is tomorrow's change. Battling through for another 7.5k when you want to HD is something that feels like a sort of failure to start with (I got my strategy wrong; I shouldn't have done it that way etc) but when the negative feelings fade, the feeling that remains is pride and a knowledge of what's possible next time.

[missing1leg]

Thanks for your analysis, GlennUk! Sorry to see things didn't go as you might have hoped because it's a non-tivial task to try again on these long distance pieces.

As a contrast, I did my seasonal full marathon two weeks ago. I also had been running through the Eddie Fletcher plan (all
be it an old version of the plan which is very likely somewhat different now), but I always work to pace instead of to heart rate. In part this is because I just don't like wearing the monitor. In part, I don't want to actually subject myself to the max heart rate test. And finally, because I personally don't actually put a ton of stock in heart rate training vs rate of perceived exertion.

This was my 3rd time through this plan over the last year but the first time I'd done it since my 2k made the plan's pace chart minimum time of 8:00. Over the 3 months of training I upped my pace from the minimums suggested by 3-4s.

I replaced one of the 2x45min workouts in the next to last week of the main plan with a half marathon in which I tried reasonably hard to see how it went. I managed to average this out at 2:18 split with a consistent negative split from the half way point to the end I definitely had a decent bit left over at the end of it but it helped inform my pacing decision for the full marathon approx a month later

I ate garbage and had a few beers the night before my race because.... reasons. Woke up early and prepped my glorified kool-aid and got at it. My out there goal for this was 10 minutes faster than the one I did last year roughly the same time. The 2021 marathon was right at the end of my first 6 months of rowing. The 2022 one was after a year of very consistent training, a bit more weight loss, and just an overall huge fitness and strength increase. So while I just wanted a 3h30min or better in 2021, this time I had an actual pacing plan and fueling strategy (having learned I needed much better plan than I'd had previously based on the 50k and 100k which I'd done in the interim). For 10 mins off I needed an overall split of 2:22 or faster. So my plan was to do all the rowing at 2:20 and stop after each 12k for the kool-aid and a quick stretch of my hamstring.

And for me, this worked a treat. 30s stop after 12k, approx 45s at 24k, and approx 1 min at 36k. The last 4k for me was torture, but I was doing way too good on making my goal time to give up that close to the end. I had almost nothing left to give to sprint finish the last 500m which to me says this really was just almost as fast as I could possibly manage for this distance.

At the end of the day, I had a 3h18m46s time which was 10m40s faster than my 2021. It put me 51/98 for my age/weight/gender on the C2 logs, 1/1 for amputees rowers and I think approx 20mins faster than the fastest amputee marathon I found in the C2 logs going back as far as they'd let me (2002). If I extrapolate the power for my missing leg using 160% average wattage (the guess here being legs are approx 60% of the total power, and I have 1 completely non-contributing), it put me approx a 2h51m time and 4th for age/weight/gender. Means nothing. The math is way to fuzzy. But it's a baseline that lets me get a better comparison for where I might actually be in terms of normal population.

And for me, rowing is now hugely back seated for the rest of the season. I'll likely do approx 10k 6x a week just to keep myself reasonably aerobically fit unless some amputees put up faster numbers than my current ones. In which case I'd feel obliged to try and beat them again. But I'm cutting weight from the 180 I've been holding most of this year down to 165 and looking at attempting para climbing competitions next year. So rowing is what's going to take the hit because to make the cut, I have to cut way way back on carbs and I can't afford the rowing to have an appreciable energy cost as I shift my training focus to the climbing specific strengths.

[MPx]

Well done Glenn. Great to have a result . Its amazing how we all are disciplined enough through our training and, if anything, overthink most of what we do around erging and then when it finally comes to the TT we fail to execute our own plans in the much same way every time, ie go too hard too soon because obviously we're way better today than we have been throughout our training. Doh! Who cares...you fought through it and you got a result well done matey.

...and well done David. You really smashed the target with well over 10 mins off your PB. Awesome stuff.