What Training Have You Done Today?

[alex9026]

This is pretty strong!

Thanks Keith, but I think I favoured the 25k the following day

Question: do others find that rowing one handed tears their hands? I need to ensure that I have fully mummified hands to do this as the pressure is away from callouses and handle less forgiving in centre?

Re chasing splits, I am sad enough to estimate expected time lost per drink. I then deduct this from target projection and row to this rather than average split, adding back the allowed drink time after each stop. That way you only "chase" if the stop is too long and the pace difference required is spread over the remainder of the piece.

Personally I would expect a drink (and particularly carb) stop to be more effective if done early. On an all out FM I drink every 5k, but usually omit final one. I vaguely recall a study that showed that carb absorption drops off once you are dehydrated, but cannot remember how dehydrated the subjects were.

Like Stu, I put my hands on the centre. I timed the 'stop' to be 7-8 seconds. Followed by a few strong strokes to make up for it. Absolutely agree re the timing of the drinks and getting them in early, at least that's my experience in other endurance sports. Almost like I'm banking it early, my stomach is less prone to shy upset then, too.

[alex9026]

Exciting to hear you're still considering tackling the marathon, Alex. You've been putting in a lot of hard work recently so I'd say do it, as you never know how long you'll maintain good form for, and you certainly don't want to be wondering "what if" down the road if you pass up the opportunity... Better strike while the iron's hot! .

A bit of a shameless self-plug perhaps, but I vlogged about my marathon attempt last month and included a detailed overview of how I approached nutrition/hydration leading up to and during the piece. Certainly took a bit of experimentation to strike the balance between feeling like I was getting enough fuel and electrolytes in, while not negatively impacting pace too much. Perhaps you might find some helpful tips therein. Vid is here: https://youtu.be/S0vnUw_G9b8

Thanks Justin. There's an element of unfinished business, as injury derailed my running marathon ambitions and I'll never get that opportunity again. Rowing is a fair substitute, I was running quicker then but much more experienced so not really a fair comparison in terms of performance. Long term however... Anyway, a positive side effect of my marathon prep then was it got me in my best 5k shape so hoping for a similar carry over!

Nothing wrong with a little self plug, I've taken more nuggets from you (and others) than you care to realise, so I'll give it a watch.

In the meantime, doing my best to rest up and shift this horrible chesty cough I've picked up so I can get back to work.

[alex9026]

1:00:00.0 15,557 1:55.7 226 1077 22 143
30:00.0 7,567 1:58.9 208 1015 20 136
r: 1:00 17
20:00.0 5,241 1:54.4 233 1102 24 146
r: 2:00 18
10:00.0 2,750 1:49.0 270 1227 28 160
r35

Maybe my reluctance to get out of bed this morning was a sign, as this felt tough, and too tough near the end.

It's not my best result, but I'm quite proud of it as I inexplicably almost HDed at 2km into the 10 mins. It was one of those rare, from nowhere moments that suddenly smack you in the face.

I read something recently, on a newsletter called Farnam Street, that is exactly what I've been thinking. "Most people mistake discomfort as a signal to stop; the great ones see it as evidence that they're on the right track". That was what kept me going when I could have quite easily HDed.

Along the lines of "this is where gains are being made". Slightly cringe worthy, but I believe there is some truth in it.

[nick rockliff]

Had a bit if diverticulitis flair up so didn't do anything yesterday. Bit better today so just a 30r20

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
30:00.0 7,329 2:02.7 189 950 20 129
6:00.0 1,465 2:02.8 189 949 20 121
12:00.0 1,466 2:02.7 189 950 20 126
18:00.0 1,467 2:02.6 189 952 20 130
24:00.0 1,466 2:02.7 189 950 20 134
30:00.0 1,466 2:02.7 189 950 20 136

[Sakly]

Not many rowing sessions recently, as training load is quite high last weeks. My throat doesn't like cardio stuff atm, so another factor for this. Low rate is not so much of a problem, more the higher breathing rate, which isn't working properly.
Today went for 20min r20 as warmup in the gym to get some meters in at some intensity.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	♥️
20:00.0	5,427	1:50.5	259	1191	19	166
4:00.0	1,075	1:51.6	252	1165	19	155
8:00.0	1,082	1:50.9	257	1183	20	163
12:00.0	1,084	1:50.7	258	1187	20	168
16:00.0	1,085	1:50.5	259	1190	20	170
20:00.0	1,103	1:48.7	272	1235	20	175

Started sub 1:52, which is around my old 30r20 pace, HR shows it was good work. Could drive the pace a bit more down at the end and I think I could hold that for longer, especially with a fan giving me some airflow. Breathing at r20 is no problem, strength also fine. Gym session went awesome (even with this piece beforehand).
Tomorrow again rest day, Friday last workout of ergenduranceseries - at least that's my plan

[Dangerscouse]

Along the lines of "this is where gains are being made". Slightly cringe worthy, but I believe there is some truth in it.

I find that the cringe worthy quotes, do almost always have a lot of truth in them. As long as you can see past that, they're worth bearing in mind.

[Dangerscouse]

Not many rowing sessions recently, as training load is quite high last weeks. My throat doesn't like cardio stuff atm, so another factor for this. Low rate is not so much of a problem, more the higher breathing rate, which isn't working properly.
Today went for 20min r20 as warmup in the gym to get some meters in at some intensity.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	♥️
20:00.0	5,427	1:50.5	259	1191	19	166
4:00.0	1,075	1:51.6	252	1165	19	155
8:00.0	1,082	1:50.9	257	1183	20	163
12:00.0	1,084	1:50.7	258	1187	20	168
16:00.0	1,085	1:50.5	259	1190	20	170
20:00.0	1,103	1:48.7	272	1235	20	175

Started sub 1:52, which is around my old 30r20 pace, HR shows it was good work. Could drive the pace a bit more down at the end and I think I could hold that for longer, especially with a fan giving me some airflow.

That's a great 20r20, and especially that last four minutes, but we all know that the next 10 minutes is a totally different beast. I'd be really interested to see what you could do for a 30r20, especially with more of your standard training

[iain]

Breathing at r20 is no problem

On all out 30R20 I have sometimes resorted to breathing 3 times per stroke, so R20 is more like R30 for breathing rate and so I have found R20 sometimes taxes my breathing (compounded by my doing far too little at rates over R19!). Am I alone in this?

[Sakly]

That's a great 20r20, and especially that last four minutes, but we all know that the next 10 minutes is a totally different beast. I'd be really interested to see what you could do for a 30r20, especially with more of your standard training

Fully agree on the next ten minutes aspect
Probably have the opportunity to check that near future

Breathing at r20 is no problem

On all out 30R20 I have sometimes resorted to breathing 3 times per stroke, so R20 is more like R30 for breathing rate and so I have found R20 sometimes taxes my breathing (compounded by my doing far too little at rates over R19!). Am I alone in this?

For me breathing is more or less the same pattern on every rate and kind of 1 1/2 per stroke. On lower rates I can get deeper breaths and more controlled breathing. Airflow through my throat/bronchial tubes is slower, that is mainly the reason, why it doesn't beat me up currently. This season it's the most affected part by my allergies.

[iain]

For me breathing is more or less the same pattern on every rate and kind of 1 1/2 per stroke.

Wow, at VO2Max (more accurately on distances around 2k), when fit my biggest struggle is with feeling I cannot get enough air in. As an asthmatic my breathing is not the fastest (especially from April to August and in October when my allergies are at their worst) my breathing is slower than many and so I cannot get 2 full breaths per stroke above about R30. Also I find that even R24 takes its toll and so any TT from 6k up usually leaves me with a very tired diaphragm that takes 48hrs+ to recover from. Given how much slower than you I am this may well be perception and not a real limiter as I cannot imagine that my lung volume is that much less than yours and I am utilising far less oxygen than you.

[alex9026]

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
1:19:25.7 20,000 1:59.1 207 1012 19

20:05.2 5,000 2:00.5 200 988 20
19:58.5 5,000 1:59.8 203 999 19
19:54.6 5,000 1:59.4 205 1006 19
19:27.4 5,000 1:56.7 220 1057 18

Been knocked for six with a heavy chesty cough for two nights and days, first one back today after a quick fire weights session. 4x5km/2:00 with the last effort being a little push on the last two km.

[Dangerscouse]

Breathing at r20 is no problem

On all out 30R20 I have sometimes resorted to breathing 3 times per stroke, so R20 is more like R30 for breathing rate and so I have found R20 sometimes taxes my breathing (compounded by my doing far too little at rates over R19!). Am I alone in this?

I'm the same, if only for some of it. In all reality, an all-out 30r20 is mainly about survival, so breathing is hard to concentrate on when you feel like your heart is about to burst.

I do find breathing patterns are a bit of a use it or lose it scenario, and I'm currently rueing the fact that I've let higher stroke rates fall down my to do list.

[Sakly]

For me breathing is more or less the same pattern on every rate and kind of 1 1/2 per stroke.

Wow, at VO2Max (more accurately on distances around 2k), when fit my biggest struggle is with feeling I cannot get enough air in. As an asthmatic my breathing is not the fastest (especially from April to August and in October when my allergies are at their worst) my breathing is slower than many and so I cannot get 2 full breaths per stroke above about R30. Also I find that even R24 takes its toll and so any TT from 6k up usually leaves me with a very tired diaphragm that takes 48hrs+ to recover from. Given how much slower than you I am this may well be perception and not a real limiter as I cannot imagine that my lung volume is that much less than yours and I am utilising far less oxygen than you.

Recently a hard workout had 3333m - 3:33 rest - 333m - 3:33 rest for two times. The first round I could do at 1:44.5 and 1:27.9, which is probably around VO2max for me at the 3333m.
My Garmin tries to measure my breathing rate (when using a belt) and on low effort steady state r18 it shows typically ~36, so it counts my full and my half breath. On the 3333m piece it showed very inaccurate data, but gave a max of 54, which is again 2 breaths per stroke and indicating I'm using the same breathing pattern on higher rates. Yesterday's r20 gave me a flat breathing rate of 40.
The difference for me on the lower rate is, even at full effort I can take very deep breaths as I have more time for it, I can control breathing much better (regardless of having issues at fast breathing or not). Some month ago a 2k at r24 was only 7s slower than free rate. And currently the difference would probably be even smaller, as faster breathing rhythm is giving me problems right now due to allergic responses I didn't face last year.

[Dangerscouse]

Wow, at VO2Max (more accurately on distances around 2k), when fit my biggest struggle is with feeling I cannot get enough air in. As an asthmatic my breathing is not the fastest (especially from April to August and in October when my allergies are at their worst) my breathing is slower than many and so I cannot get 2 full breaths per stroke above about R30. Also I find that even R24 takes its toll and so any TT from 6k up usually leaves me with a very tired diaphragm that takes 48hrs+ to recover from. Given how much slower than you I am this may well be perception and not a real limiter as I cannot imagine that my lung volume is that much less than yours and I am utilising far less oxygen than you.

I don't know enough to be much more help, but there's something very interesting I read a while ago about three limiters. Muscular, cardiac and pulmonary.

I think we can safely dismiss muscular, as you're not undertrained or a newbie. Pulmonary is when you're not able to utilise enough oxygen, despite delivering enough. Cardiac, is when your heart isn't delivering enough oxygen to your oxygen starved muscles (I suspect that this is my limiter), which is what I'd be inclined to think is also your limiter.

Admittedly understanding your limiter is only half the battle, as you may still have other issues to contend with eg asthma, and also a personal ceiling of performance that you'll not exceed.

[Dangerscouse]

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
1:19:25.7 20,000 1:59.1 207 1012 19

20:05.2 5,000 2:00.5 200 988 20
19:58.5 5,000 1:59.8 203 999 19
19:54.6 5,000 1:59.4 205 1006 19
19:27.4 5,000 1:56.7 220 1057 18

Been knocked for six with a heavy chesty cough for two nights and days, first one back today after a quick fire weights session. 4x5km/2:00 with the last effort being a little push on the last two km.

That's more than a little push at r18 for the last interval