The Two Types of Training

[ranger]

My response is not how you portray it in this quote.
I do have time to spend with you. My statement was only to point out that I focus on my training: as all ambitious athletes do. Hope this is clear to you now.

I do not "have plenty of space" to put you and yours up.. If I did, you and your wife would be welcome as guests.

My wife and I live in a tiny 1br/1ba house far from the water. Our lifestyle is not lavish when it comes to creature comforts

I'll try to arrange the best rates for you (on your dime) in a comfortable location close to the water. (We live over 1/2 hour away from where we launch on the CT) Please look into the Chieftain (they have a website) You can also google Black Bear Sculling if you want to come in July and get coaching.
Buzz and I are available the last week of June (for sure).. Naturally, if you have something that fits your schedule better: Please let me know. I suggest that you google black fly scullers too... It really is a fun event (as opposed to a highly competitive one) IOW: No one seems to take the whole thing so darn seriously...
No snobs there

Hope this puts my invitation in perspective.

I do think you'd be more comfortable at the Chieftain (just steps away) and you'd get to put in more meters that way:idea:

No need to be confused about my attitude towards you in mistaken impressions

Yes, sorry about the mistaken impressions, although I think I made it clear that I understand entirely about the concerns of ambitious athletes. Socializing doesn't have much to do with it and, sure, can even get in the way. Given certain goals, ya gotta do what ya gotta do, or you don't have much chance of being successful.

Lavish lifestyle? No need for that, and no experience of that on my part. In fact, when I come out to VT, to save money, I might just want to pitch a tent in a park. I like camping, and it's the cheapest way to go, a few bucks a night. Our place in Door County is not lavish, either, and heck, wasn't anything I bought and developed. I never had any money at all for such things. In fact, I never had any money at all, period, given that I didn't make much and raised three children. My brother and I have just inherited the Door County property from our folks, who are now both gone, given the recent death of my mother. My parents had no lavish lifestyle, either. They got the property for a steal back in 1955, when waterfront property was being given away for pennies and it took nothing at all to build a house. The house is great, but they had it built by two local German craftsmen for $10,000. Before they built that, my family vacationed in tents, and originally, in a little one-room "garage" on the property, which was built for hunters.

I thought that late August and early September might be a nice time to come out to VT, _after_ Nationals: Aug. 20-Sept. 10? What do you think? Earlier in the summer, we will be back and forth to Door County, but Cathy has to be back in Ann Arbor for work just before Nationals in August. The middle of August through Labor Day is also a nice time to visit Door County, if you are free then in '11.

ranger

[mikvan52]

(snip)
Re: Karpinnen - if you want to see what Karpinnen raced like, see if you can get the video of the 1984 Olympic final. He sat under 30 until probably 350 to go, then went UP!

Rates - you just find what works for you. My fastest race in the 1x went by 500s: 37 (rating 42 through the 250, then down), 32, 31, 33. It wasn't about going fast, it was about making sure I won that race.

Watts per kilo aren't the be all and end all. (snip)

Thanks for that, ausrwr!

And thanks to Nav'Haz' for his technical and documented approach on this subject.

Those of you out there who erg and do not go on the water ~ do not mistake rower/erger posts here as snobbery. It often seems to look that way.
If a rower introduces terms that are unfamiliar to you such as oar length, work-through, headwind, tailwind: please remember that these are things that cannot be said to be totally equivalent to drag on the erg. In order to see the difference: the best way to understand it: is to row on the water... I do not believe that equations and verbal explanation can be adequate substitutes. It needs to be felt by a practitioner.

This morning, for instance, I was coaching an 8 from a launch (first & second year sweep rowers). When they rate it up too high the boat slows down... mostly because they rush the recovery using poorer form than when they row at lower rates. IOW: They kill their boat's speed while the blade is put of the water.
If they had been on the erg they would have gone faster at the higher rate. IOW: a C2 machine does not penalize the athlete for certain (otherwise) glaring mistakes in form.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

If someone with OTW racing aspirations rows most of their meters on the erg, they will miss the positive and negative feedbacks that are required to learn how to move a boat over the surface of the water.
So far, a rowing simulator has not been built that emulates OTW well enough to be a replacement for rowing OTW.

Now if the purpose of this thread is to discuss "Two Kinds of Training":

I assume that one kind is the kind employed by ranger who, parenthetically, seems to want to include OTW as part of his spiel.
I'm getting confused as to what the other kind of training is. Will someone review that for me?

[ranger]

If someone with OTW racing aspirations rows most of their meters on the erg, they will miss the positive and negative feedbacks that are required to learn how to move a boat over the surface of the water.

I am not sure who you are talking to, here.

I suspect that I will row more meters OTW this spring, summer, and fall than you do.

ranger

[ranger]

Now if the purpose of this thread is to discuss "Two Kinds of Training":

I assume that one kind is the kind employed by ranger who, parenthetically, seems to want to include OTW as part of his spiel. I'm getting confused as to what the other kind of training is. Will someone review that for me?

No need to be confused, although I am happy to have you make different distinctions, which we could discuss in another thread.

This was my original distinction, which was only directed at erging, given that this is a forum for indoor rowing, and involved training "stages"/"levels":

There are two types of training, (1) training that advances your base so that you have the possibility of going faster than you did last year or five years ago and (2) training that gets you ready to race.

The first sort of training is work on basic fitness, UT work, UT2 and UT1, and work on technique.

The second sort of work is AT, TR, and AN work.

As you age, if your focus is just on the second sort of work, you race well, but you decline by a second or so a year over 2K, even if you work as hard as you can in training, and you never do anything out of the ordinary.

The gains you can get by doing the first sort of work are limited in various ways, but can still be large.

They depend on the balance/imbalance in your training, your training volume, your athletic ability, your aerobic capacity, your technical accomplishment, your endurance, your experience in other sports, your base fitness, your cross-trainiing, your strength, etc.

If you have glaring weaknesses, advances in any of these things can improve your base significantly and lay the foundations for a leap forward in your race preparation and racing, even for something extraordinary.

By and large, the standard 2K training plans are just of the second sort.

They prepare you to race.

Therefore, if you have ever trained to race before, given some training base that you have already established, they have no bearing at all on how you might get better.

I suppose there is not yet any startling evidence from my training that bears on this distinction, but if I pull 17.3-17.6K for 60min over the next month or so, as I think I will, there might be.

ranger

[mikvan52]

...I might just want to pitch a tent in a park. I like camping, and it's the cheapest way to go, a few bucks a night. Our place in Door County is not lavish, either, and heck, wasn't anything I bought and developed. I never had any money at all for such things. In fact, I never had any money at all, period, given that I didn't make much and raised three children. My brother and I have just inherited the Door County property from our folks, who are now both gone, given the recent death of my mother. My parents had no lavish lifestyle, either. They got the property for a steal back in 1955, when waterfront property was being given away for pennies and it took nothing at all to build a house. The house is great, but they had it built by two local German craftsmen for $10,000. Before they built that, my family vacationed in tents, and originally, in a little one-room "garage" on the property, which was built for hunters.

I thought that late August and early September might be a nice time to come out to VT, _after_ Nationals: Aug. 20-Sept. 10? What do you think? Earlier in the summer, we will be back and forth to Door County, but Cathy has to be back in Ann Arbor for work just before Nationals in August. The middle of August through Labor Day is also a nice time to visit Door County, if you are free then in '11.

Camping is a great option during VT summers... remembering the "black flies" => they do bite! I'm sure you're used to these "creature dis-comforts" There must be similar little devils where you live...

Why not ask Jennifer at the Chieftain if you can pitch your tent by the water? You can use my name as a reference: I do favors for them and have rented rack space for 3 years running... they may be amenable. If they say "no" their room rates are cheap...

Not all of:
Aug 20-Sept 10 works because of family commitments and the World Masters Regatta in St . Catherine's (1st week of Sept.)
I guess, from your suggestion that the last week of June is bad for you...
The eighth-tenth of September does work. If you still plan to go to Craftsbury you could figure out a great combination. Another alternative would be to get great personal attn from Buzz. (I just do the OTW conditioning in the Buzz/Mike arrangement)

[Nosmo]

what is important for OTW rowing is the watts/kg you can pull over 2K on the erg, not your erg score/watts unadjusted for weight.

OK class, time for another quiz:
Rewrite the above quote so that it makes physical sense.

For the mentally slower reader: What is the relationship between pace and speed? (hint: it is a mathematical relationship and has nothing to do with hammers or world records.)

One for the more advanced: what is the relationship between electrical resistance and speed? (Bob S. or Byron might find this one more interesting)

How many watts/kg do you pull over 2K on the erg? What do you do for 2K OTW?

ranger

Not an answer ranger. Seriously think about the first two questions. It is important to understand what actually happens. The second should be pretty obvious. For the first one you can start with the C2 weight adjustment formula--it is not watts per Kg.

As for me. Who cares? My best racing days are long gone, I've got other priorities now. I'm also much more interested in rowing OTW then on a erg. I haven't done a timed 2k peice on the erg in about 2 years. I haven't raced 2K OTW in over 25 years and never in a single. I've never done an erg race.
I did once do under 3:40 1K OTW in a 1x. Last time I did 2K OTE my watts per Kg was a bit above 4.4. However based on my 4x2K and 4x1K times I have more recently been as high as 4.7. But you know what---watts per kg is the wrong quantity for OTE or OTW!! ANSWER QUESTION #1 and you will know why.

Also of relevance--The one time I raced Mike, I overstroked him by 4 or 5 spm. He beat me by about 2.5 seconds per 500m.

[ranger]

Camping is a great option during VT summers... remembering the "black flies" => they do bite! I'm sure you're used to these "creature dis-comforts" There must be similar little devils where you live...

Why not ask Jennifer at the Chieftain if you can pitch your tent by the water? You can use my name as a reference: I do favors for them and have rented rack space for 3 years running... they may be amenable. If they say "no" their room rates are cheap...

Not all of:
Aug 20-Sept 10 works because of family commitments and the World Masters Regatta in St . Catherine's (1st week of Sept.)
I guess, from your suggestion that the last week of June is bad for you...
The eighth-tenth of September does work. If you still plan to go to Craftsbury you could figure out a great combination. Another alternative would be to get great personal attn from Buzz. (I just do the OTW conditioning in the Buzz/Mike arrangement)

No, June is not bad. In fact, any time is all right. I was just expressing preferences. Black flies? No problem. I camped and canoe-tripped in the Canadian woods all summer for 25 years as a kid and young adult. I have loads of experience combatting every nasty environment, creature, pestilence, and weather nature has to offer. So much so that I positively enjoy doing it. Hotels are nice, sure, but Nature is more challenging, and, well, more natural.

Nature has a way of reminding us:

Life is hard.

Then you die.

So just stop complaining and deal with it!



ranger

[mikvan52]

If someone with OTW racing aspirations rows most of their meters on the erg, they will miss the positive and negative feedbacks that are required to learn how to move a boat over the surface of the water.

I am not sure who you are talking to, here.

I suspect that I will row more meters OTW this spring, summer, and fall than you do.

ranger

"someone with OTW racing aspirations rows most of their meters on the erg"

That does fit your description because you've said that you erg 10 million meters a year and 1 million OTW. (ranger synopsis)
Forgive me if I'm overstepping the boundaries of "two types of training" but I think it's more healthy to row
10k a day avg/week (6 out of 7 days) in the summer than ranger's 36k/week (7 days a week?)
7 x 36k is 252k a week.... THIS IS ASSUREDLY (smoke blowing) IF YOU HAVE TO REST a few days AND TAPER HERE AND THERE.

Once again, looking at totals"
Am I mistaken in thinking that the only way someone can row 10 million a year is to row lots of meters during the OTW months? 833,000 avg meters a month is a big load in itself! TO ROW OTW (at the same time) 4 months at 250,000 avg meters a month! The total (1,083,000) a month is 36,000 a day... (hmmm)

I steadfastly contend that to do more than a third of summer meters on the erg injures your boat speed. Posts I've made recently go into the reasons..
I do know you feel otherwise. I am just trying to persuade you to change your summer focus...

Please remember too that logging greater #s of meters (see your "more meters than you" comment) is not the point.
I have already documented how many meters I row as a matter of fact, not estimation.
(less than 1 million erg meters/year; less than 2 million water meters/year). This is a proven winner for me as I am the current 55-59 lwt World Champion on the erg and the National Champion 55-59 in both weight classes for the 1x OTW.
Rich: You can try to do it another way but it has proven to be ineffective. You've logged more OTW meters than I have yet you still fail to race...


TO spectators of this exchange:
Do you not think that, for old guys like us, 3 million total meters is plenty of training? (rhetorical question)

[johnlvs2run]

I would bet that probably most of the rowers you have seen row exactly that way.

Then you would lose. Most of the rowers I actually *rowed* with definitely didn't do it, because as a bunch of 'social' rowers they (and I) generally rowed in, which precludes the kind of front-loading you're talking about. Of the 'competitive' rowers (who I saw, but didn't row with) there were definitely one or two who did it, but most did not.

Well then provide some evidence.

Evidence would consist of listing their stroke ratings on the water.

[johnlvs2run]

if you want to see what Karpinnen raced like, see if you can get the video of the 1984 Olympic final.

I saw Karpinnen's rows and races when he did them.

It remains that Karpinnen was a 6'7 and 221 pound heavyweight.

What he did has no bearing on what lightweights do.

Ebbesen, Luini, and Stephansen, are the best lightweights in the world.

[ranger]

"someone with OTW racing aspirations rows most of their meters on the erg"

That does fit your description because you've said that you erg 10 million meters a year and 1 million OTW. (ranger synopsis)
Forgive me if I'm overstepping the boundaries of "two types of training" but I think it's more healthy to row
10k a day avg/week (6 out of 7 days) in the summer than ranger's 36k/week (7 days a week?)
7 x 36k is 252k a week.... THIS IS ASSUREDLY (smoke blowing) IF YOU HAVE TO REST a few days AND TAPER HERE AND THERE.

Once again, looking at totals"
Am I mistaken in thinking that the only way someone can row 10 million a year is to row lots of meters during the OTW months? 833,000 avg meters a month is a big load in itself! TO ROW OTW (at the same time) 4 months at 250,000 avg meters a month! The total (1,083,000) a month is 36,000 a day... (hmmm)

No reason to refer to the past, or to your intentions rather than mine, and your capacities and training habits, rather than mine.

Different strokes for different folks.

From day to day, I will row twice as many meters OTW this year as I have in past years. I will also get out much earlier, probably next week, so perhaps for as long as seven months, rather than four, as I have in the past. I like doing a lot of work; it doesn't bother me at all. It feels great. I am also not yet training to race. I am just learning to row. So the more meters I put in the better, just to get more experience, more time OTW, in various conditions, doing various activities (drills, fast rowing, distance rowing, low rate rowing, racing, etc.).

ranger

[mrfit]

Ranger's ranking distance countdown:
39 days

[johnlvs2run]

I regard myself not as one of the "lazy buggers" but I do doubt Freed´s times.

even as a pure long distance specialist without ANY specific 2k training (or sharpening as some people would describe it) I managed splits for my 2k about 5.5s below my capability for 6k and about 10.5s below that for a HM.

no way there is such a drop in quality in the results like in the case of Rod Freed!

I do not say Rod Freed did not row these times. But how about the possibility that his machine was a bit "special"

I do not believe in 17k+ efforts.

http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=131310#p131310

Matthias-

Your marathon, as noted in your signature, is at 2k+12.4 seconds, which is certainly a Freed'esque sustaining of speed.

That you are +12.4 for a marathon, yet +10.5 for HM and +5.5 for only 6k, shows you must have much more capability for the latter two events.

As you carry your speed quite well fom the 2k to the marathon, it is strange that you doubt that this can be done.

[PaulH]

Ranger's ranking distance countdown:
39 days

A WR-level performance in each event, once every 4 days. Ranger just gets better and better!

[kini62]

So, what you row for 2K I will row for 60min.

ranger

You haven't rowed 60 minutes without stopping to rest in over 8 years. What makes you think you can erg at that pace when your last 2k effort at a SLOWER pace resulted in a DNF?

More of the same, all talk and no action.

Gene