The Two Types of Training

[eliotsmith]

2K is the only official race in the sport.

If we participate fully in the sport, we are all 2K specialists.

ranger

RangerLogic is almost as miraculous as RangerMath.

Please define 'sport'.

Well, despite all the chatter going on here, this is an indoor rowing training forum.

The sport is indoor rowing.

It certainly is for John.

He hsa never rowed OTW at all and all of his references (to 8 MPS, etc.) are to indoor rowing.

ranger

I didn't ask for an example of 'a sport' but rather what is 'sport' itself. In other words, what makes something, like erging, a sport?

[mikvan52]

PK starts at 40 spm and then lengthens to 35. He sprints at the end at 38 to win in 6:48.08

Karppinen was 6'7" and 221 pounds, and rated 35 to 40. and 33 years old!

I went out for my evening workout on the water in my single.

One piece was at 26-28 into a head wind
The other was at a 24 for the body of the piece with a 28 for the final 10 strokes.

I have spent the last three years of serious training figuring this out.

How do you get to that conclusion?

Karppinen's performances and your conclusion seem to be opposites.

I was being unclear. I should have pointed out that Karppinen was under-rating the field at that race.
Did you watch the entire video an d see how he came out of the back of the field? (this was one of his trademarks)
Most importantly: I was trying to point out that a rate like ranger's "I've got to be able to race a constant 30 before I attempt any race" idea is a poor training goal.

Also : I was not trying to compare my self to PK... That would be a ridiculous contention

My point is that lower relative rate (to the rest of the field) during a race or TT doesn't mean that the boat goes slower.
Remember too my point about conditions.

Have you ever rowed a single, John? The load considerations are quite different than for an erg.

[ranger]

It now seems entirely clear how to use this short drive (11.7 SPI) in both a 2-to-1 and 1-to-1 ratio, instead of the 3-to-1 ratio I now use for my distance rowing.

Clearly, this is the most efficient way to race.

"Danish Lightweight Racing Stroke"

If the drive is only .5 seconds, a 2-to-1 ratio is 40 spm.

A 1-to-1 ratio is 60 spm.

ranger

[ranger]

Most importantly: I was trying to point out that a rate like ranger's "I've got to be able to race a constant 30 before I attempt any race" idea is a poor training goal.

You are just talking to yourself about yourself.

Is that the way you coach?

As a coach, you are supposed to bring out the potential of your rowers, not impose your limitations on them.

Doing distance rowing at 30 spm is a poor training goal for you because you can't do it.

You don't have the aerobic capacity.

It is a great training goal for me, because you can't do it but I can.

I have the aerobic capacity.

You can't rate up.

I'll beat you because I can.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Case in point:
After I wrote the long PK post I went out for my evening workout on the water in my single.
The core of the workout was a 2 x 1k/2' rest

The two 1ks were both 3:56's
(IOW: decent times for any 55-59 sculler) Times like these win races against all comers in the 50-59 groups.
Did my rate matter a whole hell of a lot?

One piece was at 26-28 into a head wind
The other was at a 24 for the body of the piece with a 28 for the final 10 strokes.

so you see just looking at rate means very little in this example.

I have spent the last three years of serious training figuring this out. I've had lots of outside help.
Ideas about SPI and high rate were not part of this help.

I understand that rating down is best for you.

But that is because of your limited aerobic capacity.

It doesn't apply to anyone who has more aerobic capacity than you.

Your assumption, it seems, is that all well-trained 60-year-olds have the same aerobic capacity.

Questionable assumption.

On the erg, we row the same paces at the same heart rates, but your maxHR is 163 bpm and mine is 190 bpm.

When you are at your maxHR, I am at UT1.

So, what you row for 2K I will row for 60min.

60min is done at 2K + 10.

ranger

(For my sake: Would you please write in paragraph form. I'm trying to string your ideas together and make better sense of them)

RIch you are right. My VO2 max (the true measure of aerobic capacity not HR! ) is lower than young Olympic champions. Whether it's lower than yours is a matter of debate Mine was tested at 58 when I was just getting going again in 2007

You list people who row the FM on the erg... like Rob Slocum +++===++ a very nice time for age 50.
Rob won the 55-59 trophy for 1k at Masters Nationals 4 times. I know this because it's now in my possession as a lwt !

If you look at the result of the GMS challenge from last year you can see how I did against Slocum in September of 2009.
He was 60. I was 57.
https://secure.powerhousetiming.com/pow ... raceId=233


On an entirely different subject. ====>your "Social" rowing OTW... My answer= Come to VT and row socially this summer w/me.... It will have to be when I'm not coaching but we can fit it in I'm sure. I suggest staying at the Chieftain Inn in Hanover NH... That's where the best access tot he water is. PM me and I can arrange a Peinert for you!

[ranger]

Come to VT and row socially this summer w/me

As I said, I would be happy to, if you would be willing to come to Door County, WI, for a similar stint and train with me.

Sorry if you missed it, but socializing is reciprocal.

No need for a hotel, if you come out here to the midwest to train.

We have plenty of space to put you up (and your wife, too, if she would like to come).

Honestly, Mike, I think your response is: "Why would I want to waste my time doing that?"

And that isn't socializing at all.

It's just snobbery.

As I have discovered (to my surprise), the rowing community is full of snobs like you.

Good luck with it.

It doesn't give you any more aerobic capacity, and therefore can't make you any faster.

It just makes you not very attractive personally.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Most importantly: I was trying to point out that a rate like ranger's "I've got to be able to race a constant 30 before I attempt any race" idea is a poor training goal.

You are just talking to yourself about yourself.

Is that the way you coach?

As a coach, you are supposed to bring out the potential of your rowers, not impose your limitations on them.

Doing distance rowing at 30 spm is a poor training goal for you because you can't do it.

You don't have the aerobic capacity.

It is a great training goal for me, because you can't do it but I can.

I have the aerobic capacity.

You can't rate up.

I'll beat you because I can.

ranger

Odd logic
The quote refers to you not me

Rich: Leaving razzing aside. Why do you think you can beat me OTW? In all your expansive posts you do not include any time trial records or racing OTW.

Find any coach who equates an erg score with hard and fast 1x times.... Please!
They're aren't any who do.
If a 6:45 erger like me can and does beat a 6:17 erger OTW at the Head Race Distance...What does that mean?
It means that erg time does not equate to boat speed.
I am not that great.
I also am not a loser; neither are you! We win in different sports...I agree with you there.

BTW: I do have TWO hammers from Crash-B. Perhaps we'll meet and test ourselves against each other as 60 year olds (?)

[snowleopard]

Come to VT and row socially this summer w/me

As I said, I would be happy to, if you would be willing to come to Door County, WI, for a similar stint and train with me.

Sorry if you missed it, but socializing is reciprocal.

In polite society the reciprocal invitation is usually made after the first is fulfilled. It should never be offered as a quid pro quo.

[mikvan52]

Come to VT and row socially this summer w/me

As I said, I would be happy to, if you would be willing to come to Door County, WI, for a similar stint and train with me.

Sorry if you missed it, but socializing is reciprocal.

In polite society the reciprocal invitation is usually made after the first is fulfilled. It should never be offered as a quid pro quo.

Thanks for this point snowleopard!

I do, BTW, agree to come to Door County after you come visit w/me... It won't be in 2010... How about '11?

regards,
Mike "the loser"

[ranger]

Come to VT and row socially this summer w/me

As I said, I would be happy to, if you would be willing to come to Door County, WI, for a similar stint and train with me.

Sorry if you missed it, but socializing is reciprocal.

In polite society the reciprocal invitation is usually made after the first is fulfilled. It should never be offered as a quid pro quo.

You mean a dinner invitation?

Sure.

But this isn't anything of the sort.

It is a 1000-mile drive, $2000 cost, and couple week stay, a pretty major commitment, all at my expense, not Mike's.

Sure, this is socializing, but of a pretty different sort.

There is no model in "polite society" for it.

ranger

[ranger]

I do, BTW, agree to come to Door County after you come visit w/me... It won't be in 2010... How about '11

Delightful.

Done.

'11 would be fine.

I would be happy to come out to VT this year to visit, if you reciprocate in '11 and come to Door County.

I think you'll like it.

Bring Mary. She'd love it, too.

Your stay is entirely on us, although you would have to drive out your 1x.

I'll see if I can get a second erg by then.

More on this later.

ranger

[PaulH]

I would bet that probably most of the rowers you have seen row exactly that way.

Then you would lose. Most of the rowers I actually *rowed* with definitely didn't do it, because as a bunch of 'social' rowers they (and I) generally rowed in, which precludes the kind of front-loading you're talking about. Of the 'competitive' rowers (who I saw, but didn't row with) there were definitely one or two who did it, but most did not.

[NavigationHazard]

Not that it will matter much to the two principal advocates here of rating up! up! and away! but Kleshnev's research strongly suggests a diminishing return on rating for scullers. To quote RBN vol 2. no. 1 (2002):

…regression lines of power/rating dependencies are different in sculling and sweep rowing. They
are curvilinear in all four sculling categories [*] and practically linear in all three sweep groups [**] ... This corresponds with our previous findings about stroke rate emphasis in sweep gold medallists [at the Sydney Olympics] and stroke distance preference in sculling winners (1). From [a] practical point, this means that high stroke rate in sweep rowing can increase performance, while ratings above 35 str/min in sculling bring less and less power and boat speed.

* Men's and Women's LW and Open sculling; ** Men's LW and Open sweep + Women's Open sweep.

Here are graphs illustrating the point:



Moreover, stroke-rate averages invariably reflect higher ratings at the start and finish, with a lower-rated section somewhere in the middle. Here is another Kleshnev graph showing a typical practical result. It's from a different RBN, this one showing medal winners in the Men's 1x at the 2002 FISA Words:



Note that Hacker, who won, had the same average rating as Cop, who came second by a couple of seconds. Both had a lower average rating than Tufte, who came third. Clearly Tufte tried to "rate up" in the closing stages, i.e. trade rate for pace. It didn't work.

FWIW here are Rupp's precious Danes and Italians from the same event:



Oddly enough, all three medal winners averaged the same rating. If spm were everything, this would be a logical impossibility: they should have tied. The Danes actually won by 2 seconds, with Canada another second back in third.

[ausrwr]

John- Purchase's WR is 6:46, at the same event (Dorney 2006 World Championships), Drysdale went 6:36. He went 6:34 in Poznan last year.

Re: Karpinnen - if you want to see what Karpinnen raced like, see if you can get the video of the 1984 Olympic final. He sat under 30 until probably 350 to go, then went UP!

Rates - you just find what works for you. My fastest race in the 1x went by 500s: 37 (rating 42 through the 250, then down), 32, 31, 33. It wasn't about going fast, it was about making sure I won that race.

Watts per kilo aren't the be all and end all. If you row like arse, it doesn't matter how good your power to weight is.

[mikvan52]

Come to VT and row socially this summer w/me

We have plenty of space to put you up (and your wife, too, if she would like to come).

Honestly, Mike, I think your response is: "Why would I want to waste my time doing that?"

And that isn't socializing at all.

It's just snobbery.

As I have discovered (to my surprise), the rowing community is full of snobs like you.

My response is not how you portray it in this quote.
I do have time to spend with you. My statement was only to point out that I focus on my training: as all ambitious athletes do. Hope this is clear to you now.

I do not "have plenty of space" to put you and yours up.. If I did, you and your wife would be welcome as guests.

My wife and I live in a tiny 1br/1ba house far from the water. Our lifestyle is not lavish when it comes to creature comforts



I'll try to arrange the best rates for you (on your dime) in a comfortable location close to the water. (We live over 1/2 hour away from where we launch on the CT) Please look into the Chieftain (they have a website) You can also google Black Bear Sculling if you want to come in July and get coaching.
Buzz and I are available the last week of June (for sure).. Naturally, if you have something that fits your schedule better: Please let me know. I suggest that you google black fly scullers too... It really is a fun event (as opposed to a highly competitive one) IOW: No one seems to take the whole thing so darn seriously...
No snobs there

Hope this puts my invitation in perspective.

I do think you'd be more comfortable at the Chieftain (just steps away) and you'd get to put in more meters that way:idea:

No need to be confused about my attitude towards you in mistaken impressions