The Two Types of Training

[johnlvs2run]

PK starts at 40 spm and then lengthens to 35. He sprints at the end at 38 to win in 6:48.08

Karppinen was 6'7" and 221 pounds, and rated 35 to 40.

I went out for my evening workout on the water in my single.

One piece was at 26-28 into a head wind
The other was at a 24 for the body of the piece with a 28 for the final 10 strokes.

I have spent the last three years of serious training figuring this out.

How do you get to that conclusion?

Karppinen's performances and your conclusion seem to be opposites.

[ranger]

He was still faster than any lwt

OTW?

I'm not sure of that at all.

Times between the best lwts and the best hwts OTW are very close.

If I remember, Xeno says that he holds the 2K Olympic record, at 6:45.

It was recently mentioned here that Zach Purchase has pulled 6:48.

_Very_ little difference.

I think PaulS mentioned that, acdtually, a lightweight has the faster time ever recorded over 2K in a 1x.

ranger

[ranger]

2K is the only official race in the sport.

If we participate fully in the sport, we are all 2K specialists.

ranger

RangerLogic is almost as miraculous as RangerMath.

Please define 'sport'.

Well, despite all the chatter going on here, this is an indoor rowing training forum.

The sport is indoor rowing.

It certainly is for John.

He hsa never rowed OTW at all and all of his references (to 8 MPS, etc.) are to indoor rowing.

ranger

[ranger]

what is important for OTW rowing is the watts/kg you can pull over 2K on the erg, not your erg score/watts unadjusted for weight.

OK class time for another quiz:
Rewrite the above quote so that it makes physical sense.

For the mentally slower reader: What is the relationship between pace and speed? (hint: it is a mathematical relationship and has nothing to do with hammers or world records.)

One for the more advanced: what is the relationship between electrical resistance and speed? (Bob S. or Byron might find this one more interesting)

How many watts/kg do you pull over 2K on the erg? What do you do for 2K OTW?

ranger

[ranger]

[removed]

ranger

[ranger]

PK starts at 40 spm and then lengthens to 35. He sprints at the end at 38 to win in 6:48.08

Karppinen was 6'7" and 221 pounds, and rated 35 to 40.

I went out for my evening workout on the water in my single.

One piece was at 26-28 into a head wind
The other was at a 24 for the body of the piece with a 28 for the final 10 strokes.

I have spent the last three years of serious training figuring this out.

How do you get to that conclusion?

Karppinen's performances and your conclusion seem to be opposites.

Karpinnen was racing at 35 spm, not training.

Sure, it would be great if Mike could race at 35 spm, too.

He can't.

He doesn't have the aerobic capacity.

As I remember, Xeno rated 38 spm when he won Olympic gold and set the record for 2K OTW in an Olympic final.

Mike thinks Xeno should have lowered the rate to take advantage of the run of the boat.



Silly stuff.

If you have more aerobic capacity than Mike, as I and many others do, such as Rocket Roy, you can just go faster by rating up.

That's why 50s rowers are faster than MIke.

That's why 40s rowers are faster than 50s rowers.

That's why 30s rowers are faster than 40s rowers.

How much you can rate up (how fast you can go) depends on your aerobic capacity.

ranger

[ranger]

[removed]

[ranger]

To row 6:16 for 2K, I need a UT2 pace of 1:49 on the erg.

I'll see if I can get a screen shot of this.

Mike VB's UT2 pace is 1:57, UT2 for a 6:48 2K, as he has demonstrated with screen shots many times.

Top-end UT1 is usually five seconds per 500m faster than top-end UT2.

So, at the moment, Mike does about 16K /1:52 for 60min.

Someone who has a UT2 pace of 1:49 does 60min at 1:44.

ranger

[KevJGK]

To row 6:16 for 2K, I need a UT2 pace of 1:49 on the erg.

Keeping your average split at 01:34 for 2K would be better.

[ranger]

My planning now revolves around winning the HOCR in a field of nearly 70 men. Nothing will get in the way of my focus.

I respect this, although it shows that you really have no interest in training with someone else in any sort of social way.

Waste of time, in your opinion.

Entirely understandable, but I don't think you should extend public invitations to do so if that's the situation.

Just explain that you are training as hard as you can for the HOCR and therefore can't be distracted for a moment from this goal.

ranger

[ranger]

To row 6:16 for 2K, I need a UT2 pace of 1:49 on the erg.

Keeping your average split at 01:34 for 2K would be better.

Sure.

But in training, the one necessarily precedes the other, and predicts it.

If you have balanced abilities and training and are racing at the limits of your potential, when you are fully trained, you can't row 6:16 for 2K unless you have a top-end UT2 pace of 1:49, and vice versa: You can't have a UT2 pace of 1:49 if you can't row 6:16 for 2K.

That was the function (and demonstration) of Caviston's long 30K UT2/Level 3 rows at 1:49.

ranger

[ranger]

No 60s lwt has ever done much better than Mike VB's 1:57 for UT2, or FM pace.

The 60s lwt WR for a FM is around 2:00 pace (2:47:45).

The 60s hwt WR for a FM is around 1:54 pace (2:40:12).

42195 2:25:47.6 32 Thorsten Jonischkeit H M GER 2006 Historical record*
42195 2:26:40.1 45 Antti Varis H M FIN 2006 2006 Kunto Championships
42195 2:28:13.7 21 Alan Geweke H M USA 2001 Historical record*
42195 2:29:56.7 38 Matthias Auer L M GER 2010 2010 Scottish IRC
42195 2:30:29.8 27 Jesper Jensen L M DEN 2010 PM3/PM4 verification code
42195 2:31:55.9 50 Rob Slocum H M USA 2000 Historical record*
42195 2:34:40.6 18 Anthony Webb H M GBR 2009 PM3/PM4 verification code
42195 2:35:30.0 46 Bob Eldridge L M USA 2004 Historical record*
42195 2:37:04.8 52 Greg Trahar L M GBR 2010 2010 Dutch ErgoMarathon Championships
42195 2:40:12.4 61 TJ Oesterling H M USA 2010 PM3/PM4 verification code
42195 2:44:06.3 18 Ben Perry L M USA 2009 PM3/PM4 verification code
42195 2:47:45.7 64 Malcolm Fawcett L M GBR 2005 Historical record*
42195 3:01:41.6 70 Peter Daniels H M GBR 2010 PM3/PM4 verification code
42195 3:14:07.2 72 Roger Bangay L M GBR 2010 PM3/PM4 verification code
42195 3:15:52.2 82 Robert Spenger H M USA 2008 PM3/PM4 verification code
42195 3:18:52.3 81 Robert Spenger L M USA 2006 Historical record*
42195 3:32:22.2 12 Joshua Burton-Prateley L M USA 2009 PM3/PM4 verification code

ranger

[ranger]

Case in point:
After I wrote the long PK post I went out for my evening workout on the water in my single.
The core of the workout was a 2 x 1k/2' rest

The two 1ks were both 3:56's
(IOW: decent times for any 55-59 sculler) Times like these win races against all comers in the 50-59 groups.
Did my rate matter a whole hell of a lot?

One piece was at 26-28 into a head wind
The other was at a 24 for the body of the piece with a 28 for the final 10 strokes.

so you see just looking at rate means very little in this example.

I have spent the last three years of serious training figuring this out. I've had lots of outside help.
Ideas about SPI and high rate were not part of this help.

I understand that rating down is best for you.

But that is because of your limited aerobic capacity.

It doesn't apply to anyone who has more aerobic capacity than you.

Your assumption, it seems, is that all well-trained 60-year-olds have the same aerobic capacity.

Questionable assumption.

On the erg, we row the same paces at the same heart rates, but your maxHR is 163 bpm and mine is 190 bpm.

When you are at your maxHR, I am at UT1.

So, what you row for 2K I will row for 60min.

60min is done at 2K + 10.

ranger

[snowleopard]

He was still faster than any lwt

OTW?

I'm not sure of that at all.

Well, despite all the chatter going on here, this is an indoor rowing training forum.

[ranger]

Beautiful distance stroke now.

The secret is the huge ratio: 3-to-1, rather than 2-to-1.

Let the boat run!

Quick little drive, with heels set, no more than .5 seconds.

1.5 second recovery at 30 spm, longer and longer as the rate is lowered.

At 24 spm, he recovery is two seconds.



4-to-1 ratio.



I now just go along,

1:44 @ 26 spm
1:43 @ 27 spm
1:42 @ 28 spm
1:41 @ 29 spm
1:40 @ 30 spm

etc.

Heart rate in the 160s, tucked under my anaerobic threshold.

Gorgeous stuff.

11.7 SPI

World class rowing for a lightweight of any age.

I now need to pump this distance rowing up to marathon length per session, 2.5 hours.

Time to set the grooves--permanently.

The technique is perfect.

The rate is high.

The pace is fast.

145 df.

I am now rowing with a stroke that is a full 2 SPI stronger than what I used to use at the same rate over the same distances back in 2003.

At 30 spm, that's 60 watts, or 6 seconds per 500m.

ranger