The Two Types of Training

[ausrwr]

This is one reason why 2k specialists do not row hard over distance.

John, what ARE you talking about? What's a hard row?
Andy Triggs-Hodge's recent 18k+ hour rating 19?
Mahe Drysdale's 'I'm just going to see what I can do for an hour today' 18+ r22?

I'd say that's pretty savagely hard.

[ranger]

Nosmo--

Why are you talking to a bunch of 60-year-olds?

Entertainment, strictly entertainment.
For example, can you demonstrate that you figured out the relationship between pace and speed yet?

Sure, and I have a hammer and three WR rows to prove it.

Do you?

ranger

[ranger]

I do agree with John that long, hard "threshold" rows are missing from Caviston's WP.

Caviston's Level 3 rows, I suspect, were UT2, or at best, low UT1.

He did them at 1:48.

1:44 is top-end UT1 for a 6:18 2K.

1:49 is top-end UT2.

Freed did his "threshold" training at 1:44.

Caviston couldn't rate up in his distance rowing.

He couldn't do just what John is suggesting (and what Freed did, day in and day out).

ranger

[snowleopard]

Of course he could go faster.

Faster than 16:47?

No, faster over 2K, obviously

His 2K is all wrong. His 5K best was almost at 2K PB pace. Given his legendary aerobic capabilities he undoubtedly would have been capable of rowing repeat 2Ks -- 4 x 2K for example -- faster than his 2K PB pace. He must be the only erger in history to lose power as the distance gets shorter.

Choose any predictor you like and it says his 2K should have been 6:16 or better. Let's give him and his weird physiology the benefit of the doubt. What shall we dock him for that -- five seconds, 10 seconds, even 15 seconds? No o, let's say it cost him 23 seconds over a 2K -- nearly six seconds per 500m -- and accept that as reasonable. Get outa here.

I don't see any irony. But I sure recognise BS when I see it.

[hjs]

He couldn't do just what John is suggesting (and what Freed did, day in and day out).

ranger

Freed did what you are doing the last 7 years, post nonsens about his ability.

[mikvan52]

That's what I did in 2003.



As it turned out, I couldn't do a 2K at 40 spm.

I could only get to 36 spm.

I tried again and again and again.



No elite veteran rower has ever done a quality 2K at 40 spm.

Not enough aerobic capacity to make it to the end.

I like seeing that ranger is getting more wistful as he ages

my question of the day:

Has ranger ever posted any lightweight distances over 2k?

Anyone?
I'd like to know what he "usually gets"

[BrianStaff]

Mike--

I would be delighted to come out to Vermont and train with you for a couple of weeks, but only if you would reciprocate and come out to my vacation home in Wisconsin to train with me for a similar period.

You might want to re-think that offer. Having someone watch what you actually do every day might just reveal how many lies you do tell in this forum.

[Byron Drachman]

Why are you talking to a bunch of 60-year-olds?

Question for the day: When Ranger turns 60 will he say he is 61?

Hey! This is important stuff. Let me change the question. Ranger is 59 but he says he is 60. Suppose the following happens:
When Ranger turns 60 he will say he is 61
When Ranger turns 61 he will say he is 63
When Ranger turns 62 he will say he is 65
When Ranger turns 63 he will say he is 68
When Ranger turns 64 he will say he is 72
The new question: When Ranger turns 65 how old will he say he is?

[Citroen]

Why are you talking to a bunch of 60-year-olds?

Question for the day: When Ranger turns 60 will he say he is 61?

Hey! This is important stuff. Let me change the question. Ranger is 59 but he says he is 60. Suppose the following happens:
When Ranger turns 60 he will say he is 61
When Ranger turns 61 he will say he is 63
When Ranger turns 62 he will say he is 65
When Ranger turns 63 he will say he is 68
When Ranger turns 64 he will say he is 72
The new question: When Ranger turns 65 how old will he say he is?

My guess is 75.

Clearly in Rangerland with Rangermath and Rangerphysics there's some form of strange spectacular Rangerian-Einsteinian-Newtonian time dilation effects, perhaps as his weight reduces towards zero (because of his constant one pound weight loss per session) his speed will increase towards the speed of light (passing through 6:16 on the way) and his age-related time dilation will be exponential.

Then again in Rangerland variables don't and constants aren't.

[Byron Drachman]

Byron Drachman wrote: Ranger wrote: Why are you talking to a bunch of 60-year-olds?
Question for the day: When Ranger turns 60 will he say he is 61?
Hey! This is important stuff. Let me change the question. Ranger is 59 but he says he is 60. Suppose the following happens:
When Ranger turns 60 he will say he is 61
When Ranger turns 61 he will say he is 63
When Ranger turns 62 he will say he is 65
When Ranger turns 63 he will say he is 68
When Ranger turns 64 he will say he is 72
The new question: When Ranger turns 65 how old will he say he is?

My guess is 75.

Clearly in Rangerland with Rangermath and Rangerphysics there's some form of strange spectacular Rangerian-Einsteinian-Newtonian time dilation effects, perhaps as his weight reduces towards zero (because of his constant one pound weight loss per session) his speed will increase towards the speed of light (passing through 6:16 on the way) and his age-related time dilation will be exponential.

Then again in Rangerland variables don't and constants aren't.

Hi Dougie,
That's an excellent answer. Since numbers no longer have fixed values, any guess will be as valid as any other. What I had in mind was the Fibonacci sequence, and adding the numbers from that sequence to his real age each year would yield 78 for his next reported age. This is not entirely off topic, because the limit of the sequence of ratios of successive terms of the Fibonacci takes us to the golden mean, which Ranger firmly believes is the magic formula for the ratio of recovery to drive times. Sometimes it is difficult to make sense of Ranger's postings but I am doing my best.
http://pass.maths.org.uk/issue3/fibonacci/index.html
Byron

[mikvan52]

On the subject of RATE

FYI:

The needs of OTW racing are different than what one does on the erg.
Part of the reason is that the forces one exerts have to be tempered by how to take advantage of the run of the boat between strokes. This run often depends on wind and water conditions (factors that are more extreme than, say, the relative humidity of the Agannis Arena!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-wM1WYMSNk

In this video of Karppinen (at the 1980 Olympics {Moscow})
We see a sprint at 36 spm.

Here an item that would interest any erger:
(youtube comment not verified but still scary)
“A couple of years ago, World Rowing Magazine reported Pertti Karppinen, then 52, at 5:51 x 2000 m on the erg. I doubt he is not human... :^) “
http://www.worldrowing.com/index.php?pageid=110


(Surfing the web I sought a recent photo of PK:)
.OLYMPIC RESULTS 1976 Montréal - M1x - Pertti Karppinen - FIN 7. 29 - Gold 1980 Moscow - M1x - Pertti Karppinen - FIN 7.09 - Gold 1984 Los Angeles - M1x - Pertti Karppinen - FIN 7.00 - Gold © Jean-Claude Delmas/AFP/Getty Images Karppinen, le héros des rameurs par Melissa Bray Finnish rower Pertti Karppinen in action to win gold at the 1980 Karppinen a pris part à cinq Moscow Olympics. / Le rameur finlandais Pertti Karppinen en route Jeux Olympiques et s’est retiré pour...

AS of this writing PK is 30 years older than his 3rd Olympic Gold
Here’s a photo from 7 years ago of Karpinnen and (rival) Kolbe

(I'll try to add it in an edit) (I guess I better not because of copyright restrictions)
Go to Getty Images and search on Karppinnen... It's there!

Notice the wind conditions.
Neither Olympian looks concerned

Rudern: Speedrows 2003
Caption:
HAMBURG, GERMANY - APRIL 06: Speedrows 2003, Hamburg; Pertti KARPPINEN/FIN und Peter Michael KOLBE/GER - Einer Maenner - (Photo by Martin Rose/Bongarts/Getty Images)
Date created:
06 Apr 2003
Getty Images

to read more about a real champion who, BTW, will be 60 in 2013 go to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertti_Karppinen

He can't be any good according to ranger because "his aerobic capacity didn't allow him to race at a constant 40"!


Put a stroke watch on this youtube: PK starts at 40 spm and then lengthens to 35. He sprints at the end at 38 to win in 6:48.08


Shall we email him Rich and see if he wants to race us on the water?

We should be able to beat him because being so big is a disadvantage on the water (according to Rich)

[mikvan52]

Here’s the quote:

Mellisa Bray (for World Rowing Mag. Wrote)

“ After not stepping inside a boat for four years, Karppinen came back to the sport when he got interested in church boat rowing, a uniquely Finnish invention with 14 rowers to a boat. Then,last year, in 2004, the Karppinen magic reappeared at Finland’s national championships when he won the quad. That same year Karppinen set the record for his age group at the Finnish indoor rowing championships. As a 51-year-old his time of 5:52 is something even elite rowers strive to reach”


To bad PK never got a chance to face Freed or ranger!

[bloomp]

Here’s the quote:

Mellisa Bray (for World Rowing Mag. Wrote)

“ After not stepping inside a boat for four years, Karppinen came back to the sport when he got interested in church boat rowing, a uniquely Finnish invention with 14 rowers to a boat. Then,last year, in 2004, the Karppinen magic reappeared at Finland’s national championships when he won the quad. That same year Karppinen set the record for his age group at the Finnish indoor rowing championships. As a 51-year-old his time of 5:52 is something even elite rowers strive to reach”


To bad PK never got a chance to face Freed or ranger!

Mike,

With the utmost respect for Karppinen, I believe the times for the 2k were falsely reported. I posted something about them last year when Rich started his vapid drivel in the fall and was corrected pretty quickly.

If you're referring to a 5:52 that Karpinnen supposedly rowed a few years back, most often reported at the age of 52, it never happened. Somehow World Rowing News mistakenly attached his PB to his then-current age.

Karpinnen did do a 6:14.5 as a 50-year-old in the Finnish Championships in 2003, for which see the C2 Finland site at http://www.finnrowing.com/index.php?ind ... 00m_Miehet.

The thread is locked, but regardless of his 2k times at 50-something, he is still a legend of a sculler (three golds, back to back!)

[ranger]

Mike--

I would be delighted to come out to Vermont and train with you for a couple of weeks, but only if you would reciprocate and come out to my vacation home in Wisconsin to train with me for a similar period.

You might want to re-think that offer. Having someone watch what you actually do every day might just reveal how many lies you do tell in this forum.

I am happy to work out with Mike.

I did the same with a number of British ergers on several occasions over a number of years--Roy Brook, Matt Newman, Pete Marston, Phil Morris, etc.

ranger

[ranger]

We should be able to beat him because being so big is a disadvantage on the water (according to Rich)

I never said anything of the sort.

I said that what is important for OTW rowing is the watts/kg you can pull over 2K on the erg, not your erg score/watts unadjusted for weight.

At his peak, I assume that PK could pull 570 watts over 2K on the erg, so even at 100 kgs., he would be pulling 5.7 watts per kg.

That's great.

Small as you are (72 kgs.), you only pull 4.5 watts/kg on the erg.

Big as he is, NavHaz only pulls 3.8 watts./kg on the erg.

So, PK beats you, while you beat Nav.

ranger