The Two Types of Training

[Nosmo]

....
Without more information we just don't know. Whether any of us chooses to believe he is a fruad or his times are legitimate says something about each of us, but not nothing about him.

If something is extra ordinaire and extreem proof is needed in my book, everything is strange about Freed, his results, his "slow" 2k, the way he set's his pb's, his hartrate, and on top of that he never seems to have done anything in public.
Without any proof I don,t believe his results.

Which says a fair amount about you. Rupp's belief in Freed says a hell of a lot about Rupp.

As Mike said

It's a good practice to avoid being an authority on things you haven't eye-witnessed yourself! (Any one have video on Freed?)

Which may indicate that I like to reserve judgement until the more data is in. Or it may indicate that I'm wishy-washy.
(But I do think Lance Armstrong doped )

[pmacaula]

...I have been racing boats on the water all my life...I know all about wind, rain, cold, current, obstacles...these things slow you down...It takes experience to negotiate such things...Who would think otherwise?

Ranger,
Foolish me. Clearly I have strayed into the pointless world of greased pig-wrestling, but will reply and then return to other more interesting pursuits, such as actually rowing or playing with my kids.

As below, it appears you would think otherwise, most notably in the way one defines relevant experience.

..I am not presuming anything about how fast I can be OTW, but isn't it a little more straightforward than you are making out? Don't you just gaze at your speed coach from day to day and note how fast you are going? In the end, isn't that what wins races? "Tricks up their sleeves"?...Not sure what you mean...If I can rate 30 spm in head races, what then?..but perhaps you can explain.

A relevant passage from my response -

...Cohen and Karonen appear to be better at head races than Drysdale. Some of it may be because they were taking the HOCR more seriously than Drysdale, but a material component is because Cohen and Karonen are better at maximizing their speed over a winding course full of obstacles, even though Drysdale is clearly MUCH faster than either of them in a straight line.

On Experience racing boats. Like you, I have raced all kinds of boats (sailing dinghies, keelboats, canoes, kayaks, ...) my whole life, including 7 years of racing in sweep-oared shells on both sprint and head courses of all types. While this is all helpful in a general sense, none of it really helps differentiate when racing a 1x in a competitive field on a crowded, twisty course.

What does count is actual 1x racing experience over a similar distance in a range of conditions. Even better if it is on the same course.

Given the discussion on experience is academic until you have actually done a head race, let's return to your basic premise.

You will win the 60+ 1x at HOCR your first time out.

You arrive at this conclusion by taking some combination of experience racing various types of boat plus good conditioning, an excellent 2K PB and apparently uncoached solo training in the 1x.

While your 2k erg season best is excellent, your erg racing record suggests an inability to judge pacing on a consistent basis.
If you are unable to handle the very small number of external variables involved in performing consistently at erg races, it strains credibility that you would handle the much larger number involved in a head race.

Unlike erg racing, equating a win at a small OTW regatta to a win at HOCR by comparing pace/500m would be almost universally viewed as delusional. You need to show up & win on the day. No do-overs. It is also important to note that a poor time at HOCR (>10% slower than the winner, or equivalent to handling down in an erg race due) will significantly reduce your chance of securing a spot the following year.

In short, it would be really helpful for you to get a number of 5K head races under your belt in order to improve your race 'smarts'.

A supplementary point. Equating speed on your home course to speed at the HOCR is problematic. If I used my best training times over 5K on my home course (which is even twistier and much narrower than the HOCR course), I could have concluded that I would be in contention to win and a shoo-in for a guaranteed entry for 2010 (within 5% of the winner), especially since another sculler (who I was getting pretty close to in terms of speed by October '09) at our club came 7th the previous year & was seeded 1st in our division (Club 1x) in '09.
We both ended up between 5% and 10% behind the winner. A big disappointment for the other sculler from my club, but a solid result for me.

Per my previous post, do hope you get out to some races this coming year & I strongly suggest that you do so in the 1x in addition to the 8+. They are very different experiences.

Cheers. Patrick.

[ranger]

Patrick--

How old are you? What is your height and weight? What is your 2K time on the erg? What is your time in a single at the Head of the Charles?

Thanks for the advice about rowing OTW, although all of what you say seems obvious, so needless.

It doesn't change anything that I am doing.

I am not entering the Head of the Charles for two years, after perhaps four million more meters of rowing OTW.

At the moment, I am just trying to finish up my project on the erg.

I am still learning to row well OTW.

I am not racing at all OTW at the moment.

No point, if you don't yet know how to row well.

First things first.

ranger

[ranger]

At the moment, in his OTW rowing, Mike VB is about 20 seconds per 500m slower than someone like Zach Purchase, with this difference being equally divided between (1) physical capacity, fitness, training, and ability to generate power with the rowing stroke (e.g., his performance on the erg) and (2) his ability to move a boat.

Given this, and given his recent performances on the erg, I agree entirely that Mike is wasting his time on the erg. He isn't getting any better on the erg. So why bother, other than just to have some fun and to stay in shape over the winter?

My goal is to try to be only two seconds slower than Purchase on the erg, rather than Mike's 10 seconds/500.

When I am done with that project, I will spend all of my quality time OTW concentrating exclusively on moving a boat, too.
In the winter, Then, I will erg just to have some fun and stay in shape over the winter, like Mike.

ranger

[NavigationHazard]

Cheers Patrick, are you familiar with "Morton's Fork"? John Morton was Lord Chancellor of England under King Henry VII. As such he was charged with taxing the royal subjects. His two-pronged devil's-pitchfork principle was that if you lived ostentatiously, you obviously had enough wealth to deserve a large tax bill. And if you lived in apparent frugality, you obviously were hiding enough money that you deserved a large tax bill.

Similarly, if your 2k time and regatta results are worse than what Ranger thinks he will do, he won't listen to you. His imagination trumps any real-world performances. And if they're better, he won't listen to you either, for the same reason. It goes almost without saying that if you're a coach your opinion is worthless, since you lack a current 2k time or race performance altogether....

In your case, never mind that you actually rowed the HOCR last October. Clearly you'd have made the podium and been selected 22 years late for the Canadian Olympic team if you'd only trained and rowed like the sage of Ann Arbor. While weighing the same and eating the same and living the same exciting cave life....

[ranger]

After you have learned to row well at low rates (13 SPI for lightweights; 16 SPI for heavyweights), the trick to distance rowing is to find your comfortable position on the 10 MPS ladder for long Level 3 rows.

This point on the 10 MPS ladder should be comfortable enough to row along at a UT2, or perhaps just a low UT1, heart rate.

FM pace.

Caviston likes to start these rows at 12K or so and push them up to 30K, or even a FM.

Amazingly, now, that point on the 10MPS ladder for me seems to be 1:43 @ 29 spm (11 SPI).

Delighted with this.

Doing 1:43 @ 29 spm, my heart rate now rides around 150 bpm, pushing up to 160 bpm when I get tired.

My anaerobic threshold is 172 bpm, so this is _very_ comfortable rowing.

FM pace.

I can do this rowing every day, day after day.

Effective.

Efficient.

Fast.

This is right around Mike VB's 2K race pace.

On the erg, Mike is the hammer in my age and weight division.

OTW, Mike is _both_ the heavyweight and lightweight US National Champion in my age division.

If I just keep doing this rowing, day after day, trying to get to a FM, at some (early?) point, I will do it for 60min, just naturally, on the way to doing other, more ambitious, things.

When I do it for 5K, it's a pb.

When I do it for 10K, it predicts a 6:20 2K.

When I do it for 60min, it predicts a 6:12 2K and I win my bet with Henry.

1:43 @ 29 spm for 30K predicts the Open lwt WR for 2K.

ranger

[ranger]

BTW, I made a video of some standing ab-wheels.

They are really not that hard at all.

_Much_ easier than extension press-ups.

In fact, I think rowing well is harder on the abs, quite a bit harder, because of the speed and number of reps involved.

Ab-wheels are slow.

Perhaps if you could do a quick couple of thousand of them, they would be useful as training for rowing.

Otherwise, not.

For the abs, I prefer jackknives, because they are fast.

You do them right about the speed of the stroke cycle, one every couple of seconds.

Mixed with sit ups, for rest, and done for an hour, jackknives are a great core workout.

ranger

[ranger]

Patrick--

At the moment, it seems as though you are about 2:00 off the pace for your age at the Head of the Charles.

That means that, when I am 60, if I can pull about 2:20 pace for the race I will do as well as you.

I don't know, but that doesn't seem too tough to me.

That's like rowing 2:00 pace for 5K on the erg.

My goal for 5K over the next few weeks is 1:39.

ranger

[PaulH]

This is why it's ridiculous that most rowers in this country focus on trying to bully their way through the water.

And then they call this "technique."

I confess I've only belonged to one rowing club in the US. But of the perhaps 100 rowers I saw there, all but 2-3 were either a) rowing with graceful technique (i.e. not 'bullying'), or b) working towards that as best they could.

In the few regattas I went to (a couple in Des Moines, the rest in MN) I'd guess that those proportions were similar.

So, on what basis do you say that most rowers in this country try to bully their way through the water?

[hjs]

He a claimed top erger, you a very mediocre one....

"Through indoor rowing I've also learned that I seem to have some sort of comparative advantage in the longer pieces. This is a relief to me: at the Long Beach Rowing Assoc., we did lots of 500
metre pieces in practice, and I always performed poorly, despite achieving high heart rates (in
fact, my best 500 wasn't much faster than 1/4 of my best 2,000m). Despite the high heart rates, I
thought that perhaps I just didn't have enough character to push hard enough on the shorter
pieces. Now I've learned that I just have no "top end" (although I'm working on it). My best
2,000m is 6:39, and my best 500 is 1:32.

http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=131057#p131057

Freed did not claim to be a top rower, in fact he said he "performed poorly" at the usual Long Beach 500m pieces. Maybe that's where "someone" came up with him being mediocre. Also I know that "someone" does not carry speed well over distance, which is typical of most "ergers." I must be in good company being also judged to be mediocre. Perhaps if I was a 6 foot plus tall 250 pound blob who did 6:39 as a heavyweight then I would be considered to be "good." No thanks.

I posted previously that I used a modified Freed program. I did do his workouts but not every day,

Try again.


I talk about ERGING, you talk about ROWING, Freed claimed to be a top erger, lookings at his claimed times.

You "modified" his program, you have show what you did in training a few years back, it did not look a bit like rowing every day, every training. Everybody does train hard soemtimes, that's not the point, Freed claimed to do that always, that's the point.

About your drag, the fact that you did some training at high drags does not alter the fact that most of your erging was at very low drag. Why say you didn,t I canmt find a reason for.


Again no word about ROWING, YOU DIDN,T ROW, YOU ERGED.

[mikvan52]

Rich: A suggestion for you.

Enter a race and see how it goes:

The Grand Regatta (State Games of Michigan) Grand Rapids, Michigan. Master - Open - Collegiate Men & Women - HS - Junior. c: Landon Bartley , PO Box 3189 Grand Rapids, MI 49501 , ph: 616-929-0769 , email: lbartley [at] grcity [dot] us Host: Grand Rapids Rowing Association. Entry Deadline: June 20, 2010.
Web: http://www.grrowing.org


BTW: You won't have to provide your erg score in order to enter

[mikvan52]

Subject Freed:

I received this anonymous email the other day
(snip)
" It was established some time ago that Freed was/is a fraud. He never rowed a witnessed piece. Never rowed at Crash-B. (A rower from our club) knew him from (on the west coast) and said he was a middling rower at best on the water and not noticably better on the erg. His times were at one time all over the rankings, then when people started asking questions and trying to pin the guy down he just disappeared from the rankings. "

BTW: "disappeared from the rankings" means: "dropped out of sight permanently"... What do this seem to indicate?
Why did C2 institute IND_V?

I know both the people well (referred to in the quote above)... Why should I believe Freed record supporters wsho didn't ever meet him?

Sherlock, would you come in and help me?

I also find it interesting that the people who go on and on about the greatness of Freed are ones who do not race on the water. They love talking about things they have not seen or done.
Yet they have their pet theories about how good OTW rowing is achieved.

Rich's "by then I'll have 4 million meters OTW"

"Then" refers to the proposed date of his first race.

Rich would have us believe that lots of meters provides boat speed ?
Rich would have us believe that a great erg score, like his, provides boat speed?
(Notice that RIch's first question of "pmacaula" was "What's your 2k erg score/" )

If anyone is interested:
I won Masters Nationals for all 55-59 year olds last summer. How much did I erg during the summer? Maybe once or twice. It's unnecessary! It does help.. but it's unnecessary.

Did I say it's unnecessary?

Then there's the "rate" controversy

1. High max heart rate
2. High stroke rate

Masters rowers don't spend much time talking about this stuff.
My feeling is that old men seen to need to have "old" numbers to hang onto for their "old" egos.

Those of us who try to win OTW work on what gets us to the finish line first.
A HR belt is good for monitoring training effort... OTOH, it's of little use in racing: By that time you know what pace is a good goal to maintain for a great number of reasons.

Last fall I experimented: During a Head race I covered up the SpeedCoach monitor so it only showed rate. I purposely rowed a higher rate than I ordinarily do. Result? I did not go faster than at lower rates.

Conclusion: Why should I row at higher rates if I don't go faster? To say (brag) that "I rowed the whole race at a 32"?

Another case in point: I rowed in the GMS Challenge,a 9500 meters head race, with a 180 degree turn.. THey call a race like this a "stake race". ... You turn around quickly at a stake.
I sculled at what seemed to be an absurdly low rate.
I ended up doing very well.

I'll provide a link in an edit of this post if you want to see the data on a calibrated SpeedCoach
If I had sculled at a higher rate I do not think that with my rigging that I WOULD HAVE DONE AS WELL.

RICH: How are you rigged?
What blades do you have and at what length are they set?
What's the spread?
What's your work-through measurement?

Are these items less important than your rate OTW?
(food for thought)

What's your spread and work through on the erg? (trick question)

[ranger]

Why should I row at higher rates if I don't go faster?

No reason at all, certainly.

If you can only keep a strong stroke at a low rate, if you have to break down your technique to lift the rate, then sure, no reason to rate up.

Your aerobic capacity is so limited that you _can't_ both rate up and row well.

So it goes.

ranger

[ranger]

Rich's "by then I'll have 4 million meters OTW

No, i probably have four milion meters already.

By then, I'll have four million more,

twice as many as I have now.

ranger

[ranger]

How much did I erg during the summer? Maybe once or twice. It's unnecessary! It does help.. but it's unnecessary.

Yes, I agree.

For you, it's unnecessary.

Your aerobic capacity is severely limited.

So the erg is superfluous.

You can't get any better in terms of your fitness or ability to generate efficient and effective power with the rowing stroke.

In these matters, you stall out about 13 seconds per 500m slower than the best young lightweights--and there is nothing to be done about it.

You can only get better in terms of how you move a boat.

Good luck with it.

I am still getting better and better at generating efficient and effective power with the rowing stroke, so the erg is still indispensable for me.

ranger