The Two Types of Training

[hjs]

Have you ever heard of a very well trained endurance athlete with a resting puls of 60/65 ?

While I count myself among the Freed doubters (no independent witnesses to any of these fabulous rows?) this particular fact isn't one of the reasons why. Good old Joop Zoetemelk (TdF winner 1980, 6 time TdF 2nd place, 16 completed TdF rides (the record), 1985 World RR champion (at age 38!)) had a resting HR in that range.

My take on this:
1) High resting heart rates among top athletes are not unknown. It is not common but it happens.
2) I've met a number of athletes who do no interval or speed training and a very high volume. They are very good at
3) long distance and bad at short distances. They have small differences in speed as the distances increase.
4) Those same athletes psychologically dislike the short races and rarely do them. One would not expect them to do them well. It is not surprising that they would do a poor 2K and that it would be relatively much worse then longer distances, or that they do them so rarely they wouldn'
5) Top OTW and 2K ergs have to train for speed and they will have a much bigger pace difference between their 2K time and their distance times then those who only do long distances.
6) The ERG in the upper age groups is not nearly as competitive as many other sports. It is not surprising that someone may come along who can erg seeming very fast.
7) People cheat. They cheat with HGH, EPO, steroids and other drugs. They lie about their weight. They lie about their times. People cheat at lower levels not just the elite level. High School football players take steroids. Amateur master and veteran cyclists take EPO. Any one who thinks rowing is "pure" is naive.

Rod Freed's times seem a bit extreme and suspicious but still plausible to me. It is also plausible that he is a fraud or that some of his times are a fraud.

Without more information we just don't know. Whether any of us chooses to believe he is a fruad or his times are legitimate says something about each of us, but not nothing about him.

If something is extra ordinaire and extreem proof is needed in my book, everything is strange about Freed, his results, his "slow" 2k, the way he set's his pb's, his hartrate, and on top of that he never seems to have done anything in public.
Without any proof I don,t believe his results.

[johnlvs2run]

They've correctly identified that the conditioning gained on the erg is of no use if you can't translate it into forward motion, and the erg doesn't help there.

I believe that to be false. Conditioning is far more important than forward motion in a boat.
Consider those at 80 or 90 years of age. Health and conditioning are everything.

Also I seriously doubt that those of worst condition are the fastest in boats.

Hence it is almost always better to work on technique and conditioning on the water, practicing holding your technique while improving your fitness.

Those who are fastest, the Danes, Italians etc, have terrible "technique" according to most who post here, and yet they are the best rowers in the world. They are also the most highly conditioned on the erg.

[mikvan52]

ranger likes to make claims for which he's done zero reaserch...
He likes to think that competitive masters erging is the BIG sport in comparison to competitive masters erging...

So "open mouth, insert foot"

Let's take a look. Compare numbers of entrants at Masters Nationals to Crash-B. That sounds fair to me.
These are held at venues in the good ol' USofA and are both premier events for the respective sports...

THE TOTAL PARTICIPANTS MEN AND WOMEN AT MASTERS NATIONALS 2009 WAS 1770

COMPARE THIS TO CRASH B WHICH INCLUDED LOTS AND LOTS OF JUNIOR AND OPEN CLASS ATHLETES.

Just from a quick glance of the entrant list anyone can easily estimate that roughly 30% of the entrants of CrashB are masters. According to the website; “Over 2,000 (total) competitors rowed 2,000 meters against the clock in various categories”

30% of 2000 is 600 and I include adaptive athletes too in this 30%

Once again: Crash b only had one third the number of Masters Contestants as Masters Nationals did
600 +/- vs 1770

I await ranger retort


And if you want to look at ranger's category (50-59 in the rankings, lwt + hwt) here's a more detailed analysis:

THURSDAY

For the Hwt E 1x races:……………… van Beuren…(57)………………… 4:00.30

http://www.racetrak.com/central/public/ ... hoice=2504

For the Hwt D 1x races ……………………Miller…(52)……….…………. 3:55.99

http://www.racetrak.com/central/public/ ... hoice=2995


FRIDAY


LWT E 1x………………………….van Beuren… (57)…………………….. 3:51.11

http://www.racetrak.com/central/public/ ... hoice=2006

LWT D 1x…………………………….John Pauls…(54)…………………… 3:48.97


http://www.racetrak.com/central/public/ ... hoice=2003


AS COMPARED TO ERGING’S CRASH-B

http://www.crash-b.org/web/results/results-2010/
LOOKING AT THOSE UNDER 7:00 FOR 2K ERG
11 AMERICANS 50-54 HEAVY
4 AMERICANS 55-59 LIGHT
12 AMERICANS 50-54 HEAVY
2 AMERICANS 55-59 LIGHT

TOTAL AMERICANS UNDER 7:00 FOR 2K AT CRASHB 2010 IN THE 50-59 AGE GROUP 11+4+12+2 = 29 ERGERS

IN THE 1X (ONLY) FOR MASTERS NATIONALS

21 HWT E SINGLE SCULLERS (55-59)
12 LWT E SINGLE SCULLERS
20 HWT D SINGLE SCULLERS (50-54)
07 LWT D SINGLE SCULERS

TOTAL PARTICIPANTS FOR US MASTERS NATIONALS 50-59 = 60 1x participants
AND THIS IS FOR single SCULLERS ONLY (excludes many other boat classes)

[mikvan52]

John Rupp:

Please take this as a totally friendly question:
On what personal experience or study do you base your opinions about competitive rowing (OTW)?

My impression is that you are a great erger and runner...
Haven't you said (recently that OTW doesn't interest you?

Any background information on this would help me understand much of what you say.

[johnlvs2run]

When I row up the river from the Argo Pond, rather than down river to Barton Pond, I go under this bridge.

http://www.aadl.org/gallery/pictureAnnA ... 9.jpg.html

ranger

That is a very pretty location.

[mikvan52]

Another problem on this ranger-thread....

The analysis that the strongest 2k athlete on the erg will somehow have a leg up on the competition at 5k on the water...

It is incumbent on ranger to support this claim.

On the contrary:
Any qualified exercise physiologist will explain that the balance of percentages of slow twitch to fast twitch muscle fibers is different for the 2k athlete (6-7 minutes time) to the 5k athlete (18-21 minutes). Hence the best 2k athletes do not make the best 5k athletes... Rod Freed included

If you want to look at the erg alone in signatures here on line or in the C2 rankings you can see that this is true.

It is interesting that in the last 7 years there are no ranger rankings at any distance over 2k... hmmm

[macroth]

Conditioning is far more important than forward motion in a boat.

...

Those who are fastest, the Danes, Italians etc, have terrible "technique" according to most who post here, and yet they are the best rowers in the world. They are also the most highly conditioned on the erg.

Conditioning only goes so far on the water. There's terrible technique, and then there's terrible technique. At any distance OTW, I have no doubt that today's 6:47/2k-Mike Van B would demolish 6:26/2k-macroth from 8 years ago when I was on the water every day (let alone the current, non-rowing 6:32/2K macroth), because my technique was indeed terrible. Even after two years of intensive training, it was a struggle to race a clean 2K, even in perfect conditions.

Even at the highest level, in most sports, different athletes have slightly different techniques, and hardly anybody has textbook technique because we're human, after all. The main features are usually there, of course, but things like anthropometry come into play. The best athletes have good enough technique to allow their physical qualities to shine, and that's all they really need.

Since we're talking specifics, I'm not sure why you claim the Danes and Italians are the fastest, nor why you claim they are the most conditioned, on the erg or otherwise. Do you have anything to support this? And who here says they have terrible technique? What are their criticisms? I'll show them terrible technique.

[mikvan52]

Subject Freed:

.....

I received this anonymous email the other day Re: Freed
(snip)
" It was established some time ago that Freed was/is a fraud. He never rowed a witnessed piece. Never rowed at Crash-B. (A rower from our club) knew him from (on the west coast) and said he was a middling rower at best on the water and not noticably better on the erg. His times were at one time all over the rankings, then when people started asking questions and trying to pin the guy down he just disappeared from the rankings. "

I am not authorized to divulge the author... It is someone who has no interest in causing problems IMHO.


I think we should ask ourselves too why C2 instituted the IND_V

To be fair: Lots of people once erged with poorly calibrated machines... Those days are gone.

[mikvan52]

One of my personal wishes for this forum is that it will continue to provide hope and inspiration for all of us.

Someone like a Byron Drachman and a Jon Bone are great examples of individuals who fill this role...
Perhaps if I could find a way to let go of my antipathy for the fakers of the erging/rowing world, I could be more helpful in this department too.

Maybe if under "Board Index" there was a heading "Truthless Bragging" then C2 could create a cubby for lots of what is posted here

I sure would help me!

There could even be a series of key strokes a moderator could employ to transfer a baseless claim to such a "MUDO" graveyard to bleach in the sun.

MUDO= meaningless unsubstantiated drivel omitted

[johnlvs2run]

At any distance OTW, I have no doubt that today's 6:47/2k-Mike Van B would demolish 6:26/2k-macroth from 8 years ago when I was on the water every day (let alone the current, non-rowing 6:32/2K macroth), because my technique was indeed terrible.

Also you are 205 pounds.

Even at the highest level, in most sports, different athletes have slightly different techniques

Agreed.

Since we're talking specifics, I'm not sure why you claim the Danes and Italians are the fastest, nor why you claim they are the most conditioned, on the erg or otherwise. Do you have anything to support this?

Would gold medals and World Records suffice.

[johnlvs2run]

I received this anonymous email the other day Re: Freed
I am not authorized to divulge the author... It is someone who has no interest in causing problems

Wow, a fraud because (1) you got an anomalous email, (2) "someone" knew him, (3) he didn't row a witnessed piece, (4) he lives on the west coast, (5) and "someone said" he was a middling rower.

BS, and I know the source of rumor as it was posted here on the forum.
But in fact, all that was said was supportive of Freed being who he was and doing what he said.

In addition, Freed's coach has competed at CrashB's recently, so any verification should not be all that difficult.

Then we will see who the fraud is from Long Beach.

when people started asking questions and trying to pin the guy down he just disappeared from the rankings

Not so. Freed is still in the rankings.
He never did post on the forum, and no one ever asked him any unanswered questions.
My understanding, not confirmed, is that he stopped rowing due to a (probably misdiagnosed) issue with his heart.

Finally all the conjecture about Freed completely ignores that I used a similar program and got much the SAME results (sustaining of speed over distance) that did Freed, though I am 20 pounds lighter and probably significantly less mechanically inclined for rowing.

[snowleopard]

Finally all the conjecture about Freed completely ignores that I used a similar program and got much the SAME results (sustaining of speed over distance) that did Freed, though I am 20 pounds lighter and probably significantly less mechanically inclined for rowing.

Hmm, so following a training program that emphasizes endurance over speed proves that Freed's times were genuine?

[NavigationHazard]

Since we're talking specifics, I'm not sure why you claim the Danes and Italians are the fastest, nor why you claim they are the most conditioned, on the erg or otherwise. Do you have anything to support this?

Would gold medals and World Records suffice.

Here's the last medal count otherwise:

2009 FISA World Championships (Poznan)

Germany -9 total medals, of which men 3 g 1 s 2 br; women 1g 2 br
Italy - 7 total medals, of which men 2 g 1 s 1 br; women 3 s
USA - 7 total medals, of which men 1 g 1 s; women 2 g 2 s 1 br
New Zealand - 5 total medals, of which men 4 g; women 1 br
Denmark - 4 total medals, of which men 1 s 2 br; women 1 br
France - 4 total medals, of which men 1 g 2 s; women 1 s.

This I think includes adaptive events.

In the non-adaptive events, the Italians finished: 3d in the LM2x; 5th in the LM4-; 1st in the LM4x; 4th in the W4-; 6th in the M4-; 6th in the M8+; 6th in the M2+; 2nd in the LW1x; 10th in the LM1x; 1st in the LM8+, 2nd in the LM2-; 6th in the M8+. They also won 2 silvers in adaptive events.

In the non-adaptive events, the Danes finished: 10th in the W2x; 10th in the LW2x; 8th in the LM2x; 3d in the LM4x; 2nd in the LM4-; 3d in the LM1x, 3d in the LW2x; 6th in the LM2-.

No Italian or Danish sculler qualified for the championships in the M1x or the W1x.

Never let a fact get in the way of a good opinion, eh?

[hjs]

Finally all the conjecture about Freed completely ignores that I used a similar program and got much the SAME results (sustaining of speed over distance) that did Freed, though I am 20 pounds lighter and probably significantly less mechanically inclined for rowing.

The same results ?

He a claimed top erger, you a very mediocre one....

And I never read that freed did row on very low drag on the highest possible ratings like you did. So the same ? maybe in Rupworld but not in the real one.

And did you row close to your pb every session you did like Freed claimed? Never heard you say that. So again the same ?

[macroth]

At any distance OTW, I have no doubt that today's 6:47/2k-Mike Van B would demolish 6:26/2k-macroth from 8 years ago when I was on the water every day (let alone the current, non-rowing 6:32/2K macroth), because my technique was indeed terrible.

Also you are 205 pounds.

Since we're talking specifics, I'm not sure why you claim the Danes and Italians are the fastest, nor why you claim they are the most conditioned, on the erg or otherwise. Do you have anything to support this?

Would gold medals and World Records suffice.

I was 175 pounds 8 years ago, but that's really a minor point here. As for the Danes/Italians, see NavHaz's response. In any case, I'm sure those two countries have several great rowers, but what do you know of their erg scores as compared to other nations? You made a very broad statement, but maybe you were thinking of certain boats/individuals in particular?