6:28 2K

[ranger]

Interestingly, Mike VB and I now row 1:47 @ 26 spm (11 SPI) with exactly the same HR--145 bpm.

The only difference is that Mike's maxHR has fallen to 163 bpm while mine is still 190 bpm.

So, for Mike, 145 bpm is AT, 5K pace.

For me, 145 bpm is UT2, FM pace.

The difference between 5K pace and FM pace is 10 seconds per 500m.

ranger

[ranger]

For AT workouts, I'll want to start repeating 2Ks, 1:43 @ 29 spm (10 MPS, 11 SPI), and over the rest of the racing season, move toward a goal of getting those repeat 2Ks down to 1:38 @ 32 spm (11.5 SPI).

On repeat 2Ks, I don't think rest periods or number of repeats are very relevant.

I'll just do as many 2Ks as I can and take whatever rest I need in between each repeat.

1:43 is right around the WIRC 2010 qualifying time for 55s lightweights.

6:52.

1:38 is six seconds under the 55s lwt WR, ten seconds under the 60s lwt WR.

6:32.

ranger

[hjs]

For AT workouts, I'll want to start repeating 2Ks, 1:43 @ 29 spm (10 MPS, 11 SPI), and over the rest of the racing season, move toward a goal of getting those repeat 2Ks down to 1:38 @ 32 spm (11.5 SPI).

On repeat 2Ks, I don't think rest periods or number of repeats are very relevant.

I'll just do as many 2Ks as I can and take whatever rest I need in between each repeat.

1:43 is right around the WIRC 2010 qualifying time for 55s lightweights.

6:52.

1:38 is six seconds under the 55s lwt WR.

ranger

There we have it 6.52 is your goal for your first race and even that will be hard. Not suprising if use you own shapening gives me 12 seconds roule.

Last years 6.41 in your season top form, now you are desperately trying to make weight so far from best form. 6.55/7.00 will be good now

[ranger]

Mike--

Since you are already all trained up to race, try 8 x 500m, 3:30 rest.

That will tell you where you are for 2K.

8 x 500m, 3:30 rest, is done at 2K - 3.

ranger

[ranger]

I don't care about the result of any particular race.

I have already won everything there is to win, in terms of races.

I just care about the broad arc of my training more generally.

If you take care of the broad arc of your training, particular races will take care of themselves, sooner than later.

This broad arc is going _very_ well.

Last year, I had the best 2K in my age and weight division by 3 seconds.

This year, I'll have the best 2K in my age and weight division by 20 seconds.

Next year, I'll have the best 2K in my age and weight division by 30 seconds.

ranger

[NavigationHazard]

Agree entirely about AT, but I question how useful the concept is.

For every rower, there's going to exist an intensity below which effort can be sustained and above which it increasingly becomes debilitating physiologically if continued. To whatever extent you can use HR as a proxy for intensity, you can use it to help keep you above/ at/ below that so-called threshold as desired.

Any association of HR with 'threshold' is going to be a rather fuzzy thing, both in individuals and across them. That's a big part of the reason the C2 Training Guide and Interactive Programme uses bands (i.e. recommended HR ranges) rather than falsely precise hard targets. What they call "AT" rowing is a set of prescriptions (HR/ pace/ rate/ duration) aiming to push into 'threshold' intensity from below. What they call "TR" rowing is a similar set of prescriptions aiming to start at or around 'threshold' intensity and push up. I personally don't have any trouble with the general distinction, though I think there are other valid ways to structure training. Not least, as has been pointed out -- you don't necessarily need the HR monitoring to prescribe (and/or do) workouts that will address the same goals.

I completely agree with Nosmo that a well-developed 'feel' is hugely important in training at the right intensities for what you're trying to accomplish.

[mikvan52]

100 meter sprint/20 seconds An pace
400/500m TR pace
20min 5k ish AT pace
between HM and fm time UT1 pace
pace you should be able to do for hours UT2 pace

Hey hjs:

I just about to leave to go to a erg race: Will travel over night, visiting family on the way.

Before I go:

What you mean by bands is great! "Training bands" to be used to determine how you train: They are great for that purpose.

The root of this conversation though comes from the use of term AT.

Once again:

All I'm pointing out is that as far as the human body's physiological response goes, there are terms which describe the metabolic state we are in.
To be specific: The acronym "AT" stands for Anaerobic Threshold, a concept which by definition includes an understanding of what is going on in the heart, lungs and cellularly in the muscles.
To say "I am a AT" CAN be understood to refer to this.

This is an understanding of AT as it was conceived... It was not conceived as a way to describe a pace per minute on an erg for purposes of training.


I do not mind how it is referred to in guides to training. But when ranger made the blanket statement you are at AT (x pace)
and I am at AT (y pace), I felt that, in addition to bringing up science he was not accurate in his use of the fundamental concept of AT. IOW there must be lab testing (or a detailed approximation) to prove such... more than saying "Oh but I train at such and such paces and I'm not even tired" (posturing, razzing, blowing smoke)

I'll say again: ranger has never demonstrated his max HR or his resting HR. The foundation of the concept of Anaerobic Threshold.

I most assuredly do not challenge the efficacy of the IP, WP, PP or any well-considered regimen for training that uses the term AT in other ways: as shorthand; as a tool; imprecisely. After all, we don't need to be scientists to improve our erg scores.
We also do not need to make ignorant blanket statements as ranger does that are conceived in order to deride others and to misrepresent what he is able to do.

At AT, Ranger is most assuredly not 8 seconds per 500m faster than me at 500m.
He was caught blowing smoke, challenged by me for a test, and is now hiding. Notice he will not respond with a specific date as to when he'll attempt to confirm what he contends. His "fully trained" garbage doesn't apply to what he said because everyone has an AT each an every day of his or her life.
Even if I were to concede that he might have meant something else.. He will not reply with a specific date for an AT 500m test.

He seems to only be interested in blowing smoke (BS).

Let's each go about our business and see what happens.
I'm going to go on with using HR based training bands based on where my AT was determined in a lab. Others can choose to use the term AT more broadly to their benefit.



Footnote:
Here's the result of my test in the lab... I now know what my VO2 max and AT were that day to a much higher degree of certainty than those who test in other ways, wouldn't you agree?

http://yfrog.com/0rmetabprofilejo8p



I have a chart too which shows specific analyses. I'd reprint it here but it doesn't format correctly. It has been a very useful tool for me. I'm able to avoid both wimping-out and over-doing it in my training... based on know ng with some degree of certainty what my AT is

[mikvan52]

Mike--

Since you are already all trained up to race, (...)
That will tell you where you are for 2K.



ranger

Rich:
My goal to determine where I am for 2k is (amazingly) to row a 2k.
Imagine that!

Will be at Rick's store tomorrow:
Tom Bohrer suggests (in my build up for Boston):

1st 1000m at 2k pace +4
1000-1500 at 2k pace + 2
last 500 at 2k pace +0

Thanks for your interest in drawing attention to my training.
I will be fully traned by Boston. Hope you come.

[ranger]

Mike--

Since you are already all trained up to race, (...)
That will tell you where you are for 2K.



ranger

Rich:
My goal to determine where I am for 2k is (amazingly) to row a 2k.
Imagine that!

Will be at Rick's store tomorrow:
Tom Bohrer suggests (in my build up for Boston):

1st 1000m at 2k pace +4
1000-1500 at 2k pace + 2
last 500 at 2k pace +0

Thanks for your interest in drawing attention to my training.
I will be fully traned by Boston. Hope you come.

In 2003, the USIRT coaches suggested 1st 1K 2K + 2, third 500m, 2K + 1, last 500m, all out.

On this format, I pulled several 6:32 2Ks in training, doing the last 500m in 1:36.

My target was 1:37.

So I did...

1:39, 1:39, 1:38, 1:36

Good luck with your 2K at Rick's.

ranger

[ranger]

ranger has never demonstrated his max HR

Perhaps I can get a screen shot of my max HR this year during sharpening.

I haven't been sharpening for quite a while, but even at the end of some sub-maximal sprinting last winter I saw 186 bpm on the PM4.

"Demonstrated"?

I am not sure what you mean by that.

If I saw 186 bpm on the PM4, then my HR can at least rev up to 186 bpm, no?

ranger

[ranger]

At AT, Ranger is most assuredly not 8 seconds per 500m faster than me at 500m.

He seems to only be interested in blowing smoke (BS).

Let's each go about our business and see what happens.

Hmm.

If we are going to go about our business and see what happens, then the outcome is not yet determined and your "most assuredly not" and "only...interested in blowing smoke" have no support whatsoever.

They are just presuppositions.

How about this?

Let's not make presuppositions.

Let's just go about our business and see what happens.

ranger

[ranger]

Mike--

So, if your target is 6:44, are you looking to pull 6:54 this weekend?

Yikes.

My 60min target is 1:44.

60min is done at 2K + 10.

Top-end UT1.

ranger

[ranger]

This morning: 60min erg, 120min bike

I am now starting to work up my normal pre-race warm up routines (1000 sit ups and an hour of jumping rope), so that I will be used to them by the end of the month when I will be in my first race at Indianapolis.

I also got a locker over at school so I can do a couple of hours of stepping each afternoon from now until the end of the indoor racing season, just to make sure that my weight stays good.

The fat-burning, UT2 work I do in my cross-training (of various sorts) is no longer any effort at all.

In my biking, stepping, and skipping, my heart just rides along, steady state, in and around 140 bpm.

145 bpm is top end UT2 for me.

172 bpm is top end UT1.

ranger

[ausrwr]

How about this?

Let's not make presuppositions.

Let's just go about our business and see what happens.

ranger

I wasn't aware that your business was posting 20 or 30 times a day on this site. Your choice, but not your business. Business - teaching kids, being with family, training hard, that sort of thing.

Posting ceaselessly? Ah well, I'm done training for the day, so I'm off to sleep for the arvo.

[ranger]

How about this?

Let's not make presuppositions.

Let's just go about our business and see what happens.

ranger

I wasn't aware that your business was posting 20 or 30 times a day on this site. Your choice, but not your business. Business - teaching kids, being with family, training hard, that sort of thing.

Posting ceaselessly? Ah well, I'm done training for the day, so I'm off to sleep for the arvo.

I probably post about a half hour a day.

That's it.

That leaves 23.5 hours for other things.

My wife is at work.

My kids (25 years old, 23 years old, 21 years old) are grown and out of the house.

It is the weekend.

Etc.

I should probably get going on my chore of cleaning the family room rug, which I am going to do shortly, but I don't know that it is so awful to spend a little time chatting about rowing instead of mucking around with a rug steamer.

Do you?

ranger