What Training Have You Done Today?

[alex9026]

A better comparison would be a 2k of two different people with different stroke techniques, but even this is not a very good comparison, as both individuals will use their own best adapted technique to reach their max output on this specific machine.

In strength training it's different. You can work with different cadence, different speed, different depth/movement quality and still call it a 90kg squat and all different variations have their benefit, so it's not a question of right or wrong. It only means a number is not comparable as long as you don't train together and can check and replicate the form how it was done.

Both the rowers and the weightlifters are using their personal technique to achieve the same result, whether it's a 7 minute 2k or a 90kg squat. If the weightlifters can't be compared due to differences in technique, why doesn't the same apply to the rowers?

The 90kg squat is a number on paper and the 7min 2k is a measurement.

The 90kg in this scenario is a measurement of squat strength, a lifter is going to seek the path of least resistance in a test of strength or a powerlift meet. So we can compare them. He isn't going to manipulate the tempo, add a pause, play around with technique if the desire is to move as much weight as possible from point A to B and back to A again. I understand the point that the weight on a bar isn't always relevant especially in the case of PleaseLockIn who continues to downplay his work and be critical of it, but in most cases, the weight does matter. However, we are on a rowing forum, so as a collective, do we really care what weight we are all lifting? Not really, we like to read about users Erg'ing training, the ups and downs, as it's more relatable.

[Sakly]

Both the rowers and the weightlifters are using their personal technique to achieve the same result, whether it's a 7 minute 2k or a 90kg squat. If the weightlifters can't be compared due to differences in technique, why doesn't the same apply to the rowers?

The 90kg squat is a number on paper and the 7min 2k is a measurement.

The 90kg in this scenario is a measurement of squat strength, a lifter is going to seek the path of least resistance in a test of strength or a powerlift meet. So we can compare them. He isn't going to manipulate the tempo, add a pause, play around with technique if the desire is to move as much weight as possible from point A to B and back to A again. I understand the point that the weight on a bar isn't always relevant especially in the case of PleaseLockIn who continues to downplay his work and be critical of it, but in most cases, the weight does matter. However, we are on a rowing forum, so as a collective, do we really care what weight we are all lifting? Not really, we like to read about users Erg'ing training, the ups and downs, as it's more relatable.

Sure, you are right in what you write. But I'm not talking about a competition in weightlifting or powerlifting, when judges are looking for rules of the lift to make them comparable. I'm talking about an average guy, who is telling about his 90kg squat. That is a number on a paper. Noone knows what he is doing, there are no rules.
I know many people who claim to be able to do 20 pullups or 50 pushups. To the day I have not seen a single person to actually do it in a way I understand a pullups or pushup shall be done.

Most important part of your post is about the erging

[KeithT]

The numbers say nothing. Strength training is so much depending on form, you can tweak any exercise to be harder with half the weight.

I'm not trying to add fuel to a smoldering fire, but if your 2K PB is at r30, trying to do the same 2k time at r15 is likely to be more difficult. The difference between r15 and r30 is part of your form. One makes the PB easier, one makes it harder.

Is there something special about rowing/erging?

It is not a very good comparison, as on a rowing machine your own stroke stays more or less the same regardless of rate. So obviously half the rate would equate in +- half the power on the same technique/stroke.
You can vary your stroke of course, make it shorter, have a huge lean back or whatever. But that's not the intention of the sport.
A better comparison would be a 2k of two different people with different stroke techniques, but even this is not a very good comparison, as both individuals will use their own best adapted technique to reach their max output on this specific machine.

In strength training it's different. You can work with different cadence, different speed, different depth/movement quality and still call it a 90kg squat and all different variations have their benefit, so it's not a question of right or wrong. It only means a number is not comparable as long as you don't train together and can check and replicate the form how it was done.

Love this view. I have trained with weights since a teenager and while I am stronger than most I often do "light" weights with different techniques or high reps. Then, even with competitions that are judged it can be really twisted. I have seen way too many in-person or videos of people benching a lot of weight but........they are wearing all kinds of gear and arching their backs so much that the range on motion is a couple of inches. I used to have a pretty strong bench but never could arch my back like others and have long arms so my range of motion is like 10 times some people. Even when doing Crossfit I could do like 50 pull-ups if I did the kipping technique but if doing dead strict that number drops by 70%.

[alex9026]

Sure, you are right in what you write. But I'm not talking about a competition in weightlifting or powerlifting, when judges are looking for rules of the lift to make them comparable. I'm talking about an average guy, who is telling about his 90kg squat. That is a number on a paper. Noone knows what he is doing, there are no rules.
I know many people who claim to be able to do 20 pullups or 50 pushups. To the day I have not seen a single person to actually do it in a way I understand a pullups or pushup shall be done.

Most important part of your post is about the erging

Then I have my misinterpreted your original point... and yes, I mean, we have a 65kg cyclist claiming a 200kg squats for reps, so I often take figures with a grain of salt!

Love this view. I have trained with weights since a teenager and while I am stronger than most I often do "light" weights with different techniques or high reps. Then, even with competitions that are judged it can be really twisted. I have seen way too many in-person or videos of people benching a lot of weight but........they are wearing all kinds of gear and arching their backs so much that the range on motion is a couple of inches. I used to have a pretty strong bench but never could arch my back like others and have long arms so my range of motion is like 10 times some people. Even when doing Crossfit I could do like 50 pull-ups if I did the kipping technique but if doing dead strict that number drops by 70%.

Geared powerlifting has gotten out of control. I can relate to the long arms and range of motion, I can accept my genetic potential for lifting isn't going to be particularly high!

[reuben]

The 90kg squat is a number on paper and the 7min 2k is a measurement.

The 90kg in this scenario is a measurement of squat strength, a lifter is going to seek the path of least resistance in a test of strength or a powerlift meet. So we can compare them. He isn't going to manipulate the tempo, add a pause, play around with technique if the desire is to move as much weight as possible from point A to B and back to A again. I understand the point that the weight on a bar isn't always relevant especially in the case of PleaseLockIn who continues to downplay his work and be critical of it, but in most cases, the weight does matter. However, we are on a rowing forum, so as a collective, do we really care what weight we are all lifting? Not really, we like to read about users Erg'ing training, the ups and downs, as it's more relatable.

Sure, you are right in what you write. But I'm not talking about a competition in weightlifting or powerlifting, when judges are looking for rules of the lift to make them comparable. I'm talking about an average guy, who is telling about his 90kg squat. That is a number on a paper. Noone knows what he is doing, there are no rules.
I know many people who claim to be able to do 20 pullups or 50 pushups. To the day I have not seen a single person to actually do it in a way I understand a pullups or pushup shall be done.

Most important part of your post is about the erging

This is what I've been wondering about, albeit silently, as I didn't want to put any words in your mouth.

My terribly uninformed knowledge of weightlifting competitions is that for each lift or movement there are rules regarding what does and doesn't qualify as valid. In olden days this used to be at the discretion of judges, and perhaps still is. Rules, albeit interpreted and enforced by fallible humans. But for the average guy or gal in the local gym, these rules don't apply unless they choose to do so. Pullups, planks, dead lifts, whatever. Even rowing/erging.

My workouts are really just numbers on paper, nowadays known as the c2 log. I suppose I could fake them if I wanted to, or fake them in some other app or log. I've read of such faking in some online sports and competitions.

As alex said,

The 90kg in this scenario is a measurement of squat strength, a lifter is going to seek the path of least resistance in a test of strength or a powerlift meet. So we can compare them.

I seek the path of least resistance when rowing. I don't try to make a session harder or longer if I don't need to. I want to be more efficient. I want to be faster. Thankfully, I'm not obsessed with this, as age/entropy is my enemy in this regard. But that's just the way life is. I'd venture to say that optimization is a goal, no matter our level of rowing, pullups, dead lifts, running, swimming, or anything else. We try to do the best we can with the genes, age, strength, cardio, injuries, work and life obligations, etc., that we have, and improve if possible.

Yes, I've seen all sorts of "cheaters" in gyms doing various exercises. But so what? They're not hurting me, and maybe I was unduly strict with myself. Maybe they look at me and laugh. Again, so what? As long as we're all putting in some work from which we benefit and don't harm others, who cares about form? Sure, bad form can lead to injury, and may limit long term progress, but that's a personal choice. I've almost certainly cheated myself at times, knowingly or unknowingly, just to get in that last rep, form be damned, and the same can be said at times be said for rowing in my basement, when I started too fast and had a hard time holding it until the end. Maybe I misjudged my pace, maybe I didn't sleep well, maybe I have a cold coming on. Whatever.

When I used to go to a gym, I had a few exercises which I did differently than just about everyone, due to hereditary back/spine issues from both parents. These issues aren't major (yet), but they can affect me at times. They almost never stop me, but they can slow me down or cause me to cut an activity short if I'm not sufficiently fit and prepared. And so I've always been conscious of it, and done exercises to strengthen the muscles which support and control my spine in various ways. This has led me to do a few standard exercises in what likely appear to be strange ways to others. So what? It helps me (I hope) and doesn't hurt them. The gym was never the only place I looked like a fool.

Again, citing my terribly uninformed knowledge about rowing, there are no such rules. We complete a certain distance in a certain time on a (certified) machine and that's that (PEDs and such notwithstanding). We can use any technique, SPM, etc. We did it. Weightlifting, at least in the local gym, is similar. We move a certain mass a certain number of times in some manner, using the technique of our choice.

Maybe we (I) have gone too far. Maybe we should drop this, agree to disagree, or acknowledge that we're talking past each other, failing to communicate, missing something in the reading and writing.

Sorry, I've gone on too long.

[IronMike]

Today did the WOD, trying to stick to 27 s/m +/- 1.

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
18:00.0 2,860m 3:08.8 52 478 26
3:00.0 467m 3:12.7 49 468 26
r: 2:00 237m
3:00.0 472m 3:10.6 50 473 27
r: 2:00 258m
3:00.0 471m 3:11.0 50 472 27
r: 2:00 242m
3:00.0 486m 3:05.1 55 489 27
r: 2:00 229m
3:00.0 484m 3:05.9 54 487 27
r: 2:00 232m
3:00.0 480m 3:07.5 53 482 27
r: 2:00 218m
r1,416m

Trying to get a feel for what 27 s/m feels like, similar to what I did the other day on the 3000 at 25 s/m.

Lifted yesterday. SQ, OHP, DL. Getting my weights back up after taking almost 4 weeks off when I injured a few ribs. (Damn that hurt.) Will be back in the mid- to high-200s soon.

[Jbrown1215]

Felt the pinch on this 12x1:00/1:00r…

If I learned anything from John Davies and my 13-week 2k plan, it’s that you have to TRAIN fast to RACE fast. Sound obvious? Yes, but I had clearly done an insufficient amount of speed work through most of 2024 up until his plan. Getting the frequent reps in at or well-ABOVE my target 2k race pace was critical to my preparations. And as I’ve discovered in the last couple weeks, all that speed work appears to have driven pretty significant improvements in the longer distances as well, which is where I’m focused now.

While not necessarily the most enjoyable workouts, I now view these as an imperative (and I do like that I can get through them relatively quickly). I’ll need to make sure I keep them in the rotation, even if not as often as they appeared during my 2k training block.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M
12:00.0	4,039m	1:29.1	494	2001	37
1:00.0	336m	1:29.2	492	1992	38
1:00.0	336m	1:29.2	492	1992	37
1:00.0	337m	1:29.0	496	2007	37
1:00.0	336m	1:29.2	492	1992	36
1:00.0	337m	1:29.0	496	2007	37
1:00.0	336m	1:29.2	492	1992	37
1:00.0	337m	1:29.0	496	2007	37
1:00.0	336m	1:29.2	492	1992	37
1:00.0	337m	1:29.0	496	2007	37
1:00.0	336m	1:29.2	492	1992	37
1:00.0	337m	1:29.0	496	2007	38
1:00.0	338m	1:28.7	501	2022	38
r1,672m

[Dangerscouse]

1:29:07.3 21,097m 2:06.7 172 891 17 120
12:24.4 3,000m 2:04.0 183 930 19 120
12:33.6 6,000m 2:05.6 177 907 18 119
12:37.7 9,000m 2:06.2 174 898 18 120
12:40.7 12,000m 2:06.7 172 891 18 120
12:42.5 15,000m 2:07.0 171 886 18 120
12:44.7 18,000m 2:07.4 169 881 17 122
12:59.1 21,000m 2:09.8 160 850 17 123
0:24.6 21,097m 2:06.8 172 890 20 121

Wow, this felt like df1000, and I wanted to HD from about 2k in.

Sometimes, the figures don't tell the full story as this wasn't pleasant, but I took the opportunity to reinforce my ability to relax rather than tense up when it's not a good day.

To top off my bad day, I had to go to the toilet after I'd finished, and an earbud dropped out and into the pan!! Luckily they're not expensive, but I did love them and they'd been going for over a year with no issues.

[Sakly]

I had to go to the toilet after I'd finished, and an earbud dropped out and into the pan!!

Oh no
Probably they are waterproof, so you can go on using them

[Dangerscouse]

I had to go to the toilet after I'd finished, and an earbud dropped out and into the pan!!

Oh no
Probably they are waterproof, so you can go on using them

Given how much sweat they've coped with, I think that they might be, but now that it's halfway to the sea (I flushed it), I'm not going to have the chance to test the theory.

[putridp]

An unusal session for me, taking the lead from my local club's recent workout. 2x10:00/8:00r, rate 26 and 28. Makes a change from my usual r20 UT2/UT1 SS or r38-40 HIIT.

Code: Select all

2x10:00/8:00r row
Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	S/M	HR
20:00.0	5,570m	1:47.7	280	27	164
10:00.0	2,783m	1:47.7	279	26	164
10:00.0	2,787m	1:47.6	281	28	164
r605m					

[Cricketbat]

Could I ask for your thoughts on CTC 300 please? I’ve just done a 2k plan, rowed my all time pb last week at 6.41 and feel as fit as I’ve ever been (faster than in my 20s, 48 now!) Rowed it at df 135. I recognise I’m not very strong (years of running, don’t do enough/any weights) and consequently my sprint pace is woeful; 1.29/500 for 300m just now, rowed at df 170. Feel I need to lower the df (and do some weights obvs, but that’s a longer term thing). Any advice on where you pitch your sprint df, relative to 2k df? Thanks!

[Sakly]

Could I ask for your thoughts on CTC 300 please? I’ve just done a 2k plan, rowed my all time pb last week at 6.41 and feel as fit as I’ve ever been (faster than in my 20s, 48 now!) Rowed it at df 135. I recognise I’m not very strong (years of running, don’t do enough/any weights) and consequently my sprint pace is woeful; 1.29/500 for 300m just now, rowed at df 170. Feel I need to lower the df (and do some weights obvs, but that’s a longer term thing). Any advice on where you pitch your sprint df, relative to 2k df? Thanks!

Use same ballpark for 2k and did the CTC at 160. Not necessarily proving you will get better with a lower DF, but these are my numbers you asked for

[alex9026]

1:31:33.6 24,000m 1:54.4 233 1103 21
30:48.1. 8,000m 1:55.5 227 1081 21
r: 3:00 19m
26:48.7. 7,000m. 1:54.9 231 1093 21
r: 3:00 16m
19:04.2. 5,000m. 1:54.4 234 1104 21
r: 3:00 19m
14:52.6. 4,000m 1:51.5 252 1167 21

Not a broken distance session I can take credit for, but one I'll definitely repeat.

[Sakly]

I had to go to the toilet after I'd finished, and an earbud dropped out and into the pan!!

Oh no
Probably they are waterproof, so you can go on using them

Given how much sweat they've coped with, I think that they might be, but now that it's halfway to the sea (I flushed it), I'm not going to have the chance to test the theory.

Haha, ok. Hopefully conditions to test it will not occur with the new ones