Pondering the Beginner Pete Plan

[PleaseLockIn]

What is this?

10 big power strokes as strong as you can.

Crazy. I tried a 9000m with a max power 10 at r20 and only held around 1:55 *facepalm*

My connection with the rower is next to nothing- even collapsing at the front. No wonder when I tried holding 2:15 r20 at the end my HR shot up to 180s

https://log.concept2.com/profile/2501432/log/99961386

damn. I came off a minor sprain. I need to step it up!

I think I wrote this already some time ago. If you want to train strong strokes, train strong strokes and not a 9000m.
Focus on one thing at a time, don't mix it, as this has less (to no) value.
Our current internal team challenge is a 20 times 1min on/off at r24. This is a great workout to train big strokes. Focus on 24 very big strokes, don't rush, feel the connection to the machine at the catch, focus on good leg drive first and a strong hip hinge following. Drive the pace down as much as possible. Take the minute rest to get some really deep breaths and recover, to attack the next one and next one and so on.
A steady session has another goal and should be treated differently.

I do agree with you Sascha, but power 10s, as I understand it, are standard for University OTW training, so I'm not sure that there's the ability to change the training, regardless of the benefits, unless there's total discretion?

The one minute on / one off at r24 or 30r20 are great suggestions

To confirm, that day I was with my coach and he told me to try a power 10s in what was supposed to be UT1. I do not have total discretion to change my training.

Thus, I'm in a weird limbo where I am trying to keep to the BPP while also including their training. My coach doesn't require a lot but in my training he includes his stuff, and sometimes in the middle of it. Not ideal, but...

But yes, for the hard sessions I will try to train strong strokes. Hard. Trying to follow the advice even if many things try to stop me.

[PleaseLockIn]

The maximum power you can sustain for 10 strokes in a row (10 strokes in a row max). In my university they do this at rate 20.

Got it to 1:55 r20 which isn’t good. The team does at least low 1:40s on it at r20. To be fair my legs did move first and a lot of my power leaked to the ground not in the machine. But it’s a big sign I need to step it up.

PS did a max watts test after, 426W approximately. Just slightly off from the 30 min free rate world record for one stroke.

I think your statement you held 1:55 for 10 strokes is not entirely true, your graph shows you held 1:55 for 14s; which is about half the time needed for 10 strokes at r20
It might be semantics but "holding a pace" isn't the same as once I pushed for 10 strokes the best I managed was X pace.
you also didn't stick at 20spm either according to PM5 maths in your plot.

I'm not trying to nitpick to be mean, but if you're targetting specific goals & then declaring them, you need to be honest with yourself first and foremost.

And what do you mean "my legs moved first" - your legs should move first - so I really don't understand that comment as to mitigate something.

What's the rating of the 426W? - a number on it's own doesn't give much context - if for example it was low 40's you've probably got more left on the table, as being smaller/lighter you ought to be able to get up to the high 40's low 50's. (maybe even higher). if it was in the 50's then you've leaked a lot of power by rating up and dropping stroke quality etc.

Again not as a yardstick for you to compare, but my highest power I've seen was at r47, but my best Wmin was at r42 and there was only 22W difference between the two.
I have managed to hit 50spm as well - but less max power than the above strokes - which means I either need to practice really high rates, or mid 40's is my sweet spot. (or both)

Yes should be honest with myself. The rating was 47 for the 426W

What I meant is that at the drive the handle should be moving at the same time as my legs. But my core collapses. Thus in the start my legs started going before the handle. Sorry for my unclear wording.

[p_b82]

Yes should be honest with myself. The rating was 47 for the 426W

What I meant is that at the drive the handle should be moving at the same time as my legs. But my core collapses. Thus in the start my legs started going before the handle. Sorry for my unclear wording.

Kudos for acknowledging it - not always easy when we want to look at things from a more rose tinted perspective.

I seem to remember that you said you got your chest to your thighs before - apologies if I made that up, but I think it was you who said it. -and if you're still trying to grab length there it could be why you struggle to keep your core rigid at the higher rates.

the high rates do require a shorter stroke - slightly less compression up the slide and slightly less lean forward - It's an ugly looking rowing stroke, but the aim is to maximise the legs & back component at the cost of length. (really front load the force curve)

Given that you've been doing a lot of low rate stuff, to rate up over double what you've been doing is not bad to keep 9Wmin & you're a lightweight too, so that's up at 6+ W/kg - I'd be pretty pleased with that as a marker if I were in your shoes.

[PleaseLockIn]

Yes should be honest with myself. The rating was 47 for the 426W

What I meant is that at the drive the handle should be moving at the same time as my legs. But my core collapses. Thus in the start my legs started going before the handle. Sorry for my unclear wording.

Kudos for acknowledging it - not always easy when we want to look at things from a more rose tinted perspective.

I seem to remember that you said you got your chest to your thighs before - apologies if I made that up, but I think it was you who said it. -and if you're still trying to grab length there it could be why you struggle to keep your core rigid at the higher rates.

the high rates do require a shorter stroke - slightly less compression up the slide and slightly less lean forward - It's an ugly looking rowing stroke, but the aim is to maximise the legs & back component at the cost of length. (really front load the force curve)

Given that you've been doing a lot of low rate stuff, to rate up over double what you've been doing is not bad to keep 9Wmin & you're a lightweight too, so that's up at 6+ W/kg - I'd be pretty pleased with that as a marker if I were in your shoes.

Probably did say that. I decided to protract my scapula ~2 inches to get the length instead. I tried the form tips, and breathing (inhale through chest, exhale through stomach while expanding it). At least my force curve looks similar to a rainbow, not a hill.

I am happy with it. Though in my uni team, year 1 men are holding 200W higher at least for max watts. That's a lot of power.

Did 8000m as a harder SS to get back into it. Didn't care about HR, concentrated on technique while holding r19.
https://log.concept2.com/profile/2501432/log/99997021

The HR drift is astounding. To be fair, it's becoming warmer. Room temperature when I did the row.

[reuben]

Week 16.3, 30 minutes. Pete said to do this at the same pace as a recent 10k and try to go faster at the end (he ALWAYS says that!).

This seemed like a pretty simple task, almost like a recovery session, so I decided to do the first 10 minutes at the 10k pace, the second 10 minutes 1s faster, and the last 10 minutes another 1s faster, so I should average out around the previous 10k pace - 1s. Looking back, I did that 10k at 2:27, so 2:27, 2:26, and 2:25 were my targets for each 10 minute period, which should leave me at 2:26 average for the whole 30 minutes. I tried to cap myself at 22spm, and keep up the smoother stroke I've developed lately.

I definitely had more left in the tank. Coulda/shoulda gone faster. But, you know - "Shut up and take the win."

Code: Select all

Time 	Meters 	Pace 	Watts 	Cal/Hr 	S/M 	
30:00.0 	6,232 	2:24.4 	116 	699 	22 	142
06:00.0 	1,226 	2:26.8 	111 	680 	22 	131
12:00.0 	1,234 	2:25.8 	113 	688 	21 	137
18:00.0 	1,238 	2:25.3 	114 	691 	22 	142
24:00.0 	1,245 	2:24.5 	116 	698 	22 	144
30:00.0 	1,290 	2:19.5 	129 	743 	23 	156

It looks like there's either a core or optional 30 minute session for 6 of the remaining 8 weeks of the plan, so like the 10k, it will be a good yardstick.

I've been thinking ahead as well (because I'm impatient!)

We are grasshoppers. We must be patient.

[DJ1972]

It would be a pity that this thread dies for new comers (like I was) not to see the benefits of the plan and participate.

Week 17.2
8 x 500m / 2min rest – Look right back to week 11 for the last time you did this session. I bet that pace look easy now, 6 weeks on, doesn’t it? Small improvements are the way to go, however, so aim for the same average pace as last time for the first 7 reps, and then give everything you have for a fast final rep!

I knew I was conservative on this interval because it is very demanding. I just don't like it. In contrast, I love the confort of long distance and steady state.
Previous session at Week 14 was completed at 1:53. I targeted to push to my limits this time, certainly too much at the start. I have a complete different baseline for the next time and below 1:50.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
14:35.4	4,000	1:49.4	267	1219	30	166
1:47.9	500	1:47.9	279	1258	29	161
r: 2:00	18						
1:48.0	500	1:48.0	278	1256	29	163
r: 2:00	19						
1:48.0	500	1:48.0	278	1256	30	166
r: 2:00	16						
1:49.2	500	1:49.2	269	1225	30	166
r: 2:00	13						
1:49.3	500	1:49.3	268	1222	31	169
r: 2:00	15						
1:50.5	500	1:50.5	259	1192	30	169
r: 2:00	18						
1:52.5	500	1:52.5	246	1146	30	167
r: 2:00	13						
1:49.9	500	1:49.9	264	1207	31	170
r112			

For comparison (with myself)
Week 1

Code: Select all

2:04.1	500	2:04.1	183	930	23	152
r: 2:00	18						
2:04.1	500	2:04.1	183	930	22	155
r: 2:00	19						
2:04.0	500	2:04.0	184	931	23	159
r: 2:00	22						
2:03.9	500	2:03.9	184	933	24	161
r: 2:00	21						
2:03.5	500	2:03.5	186	939	23	161
r: 2:00	18						
1:59.0	500	1:59.0	208	1014	24	170
r117					

[DJ1972]

Week 17.3
2 x 15min / 2min rest – Aim for the same pace you managed for the 3 x 10min in week 15.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
30:00.0	6,750	2:13.3	148	808	22	145
15:00.0	3,360	2:13.9	146	801	22	144
r: 2:00	17						
15:00.0	3,390	2:12.7	150	814	22	147
r17				

Slowly decreasing pace whilst maintaining big chunk of session in UT2. Today 30R20 with the aim of slowly getting as close as possible to 200W average.

[Joris]

@DJ1972: you seem to be in a good flow! Keep it going.

It would be a pity that this thread dies for new comers (like I was) not to see the benefits of the plan and participate.

I agree, so here is a little update from my side, after an 11 day break due to holidays.
Before my leave I was gradually increasing my steady state pace, but I noticed that the last few sessions my fitness was no longer improving at the same pace so the steady states started to feel more and more intense and my times at the interval sessions started to stagnate a bit.

Since I was also a bit sick and tired at times (not necessarily because of rowing, but also because of busy times at home and work), it was hard to judge whether my fitness was stagnating due to overtraining or whether it was just a temporary phenomenon that I had to go through without nececessarily adjusting my trainingschedule or intensity. During the last session before my holidays, I also failed for the first time to meet a predetermined target. That was during the 5 x 800m interval session.

So not an easy context to set targets again after my holiday (during which I had run a little bit and played tennis a few times).

Week 19.5 [4 x 2k]
As my first session on Sunday, I chose the last remaing session from Week 19.
This seemed like a good session to restart again, at least in the form of a steady state (plus) session, and thus not in the form of an interval session.
I realized a split of 2:17, with my heart rate being about the same as the 4 x 8 minutes of session 17.5.
So no progress, but no regression either.

Week 20.1 [12k]
After a light run (to take advantage of the nice weather) on Monday, I opted for a long steady state session on Tuesday, also the longest of this plan(!), targeting 2:23 (which was 1 second slower than the 10k of session 19.1 and the same pace as the 11k session of session 18.1. Without the interuption, I would probably have aimed for 2:22.
With a heart rate of 142, I ended up roughly at my grey zone between UT1 and AT, higher than my self-determined maximum of 140 and 3 beats higher than I achieved in the other forementioned steady state sessions where during those sessions I already began to doubt whether I was not approaching the steady states too intensely.
During my last session I also had the impression that the peak of my power curve was a bit more to the left compared to before, with thus a longer tail at the end. This could indicate that the fitness of my legs is a bit ahead of my core and arm muscles? Not sure if it will even itself out again automatically after a few sessions but I will definitely keep an eye on it.

So again, after those first two sessions, questions remain about how I should pace the next sessions. Should I continue with the same approach and count on the fact that my form will recover? Or rather take it a bit slower, especially during steady state sessions (and possibly repeat some sessions from before the holidays)?

Rationally, the latter is probably the most sensible. But mentally, I much rather prefer to keep evolving the plan, even if that means that my final times at the end of the plan will be a little slower as a result. This plan will not be an end point anyway, so in itself it doesn't matter where I stand at the end of this plan. For now, I'm going to keep evaluating it a bit session by session, with the idea of continuing to evolve the plan, but trying not to go too fast during the steady state sessions.

[Dangerscouse]

So again, after those first two sessions, questions remain about how I should pace the next sessions. Should I continue with the same approach and count on the fact that my form will recover? Or rather take it a bit slower, especially during steady state sessions (and possibly repeat some sessions from before the holidays)?

Rationally, the latter is probably the most sensible. But mentally, I much rather prefer to keep evolving the plan, even if that means that my final times at the end of the plan will be a little slower as a result. This plan will not be an end point anyway, so in itself it doesn't matter where I stand at the end of this plan. For now, I'm going to keep evaluating it a bit session by session, with the idea of continuing to evolve the plan, but trying not to go too fast during the steady state sessions.

FWIW, this is my opinion. You'll necessarily hit the buffers on pace, as you'll find the limit of your current ability, so this may be about right or lower than expected due to under recovery. It's important to be honest with yourself as both of these have different solutions.

It sounds like you're going through a bit of rough patch with other life stresses, so if it is, I'd rein it in a bit, based on the fact that the last rep is open to ramping up the pace anyway. You should be able to fairly quickly figure out if it's a temporary issue and something you can fight through or not.

Dropping back on the pace on SS can quite often be a good idea, as long as you're mindful of what you're doing and not letting it become an easy way out. There's a subtle but important difference between doing what you should and what you could.

[p_b82]

<snip>

During my last session I also had the impression that the peak of my power curve was a bit more to the left compared to before, with thus a longer tail at the end. This could indicate that the fitness of my legs is a bit ahead of my core and arm muscles? Not sure if it will even itself out again automatically after a few sessions but I will definitely keep an eye on it.

So again, after those first two sessions, questions remain about how I should pace the next sessions. Should I continue with the same approach and count on the fact that my form will recover? Or rather take it a bit slower, especially during steady state sessions (and possibly repeat some sessions from before the holidays)?

The force curve is just a guide - I'd not say that it is a strength/fitness thing, but more where you generate the power. I could be highlighting that you've changed your sequencing a bit, and you're opening your back while still driving with the legs, so there's some overlap and less of the distinct phases.

This in itself isn't a problem on the erg - and is more akin to the stroke/sequence needed when doing v high rates while sprinting.

I always find the first 2/3 sessions after even a week's break are a little anomalous in the numbers and feel, and so I'd be more inclined to assess things next week once settled back into the routine again.

[reuben]

Before my leave I was gradually increasing my steady state pace, but I noticed that the last few sessions my fitness was no longer improving at the same pace so the steady states started to feel more and more intense and my times at the interval sessions started to stagnate a bit.

Since I was also a bit sick and tired at times (not necessarily because of rowing, but also because of busy times at home and work), it was hard to judge whether my fitness was stagnating due to overtraining or whether it was just a temporary phenomenon that I had to go through without nececessarily adjusting my trainingschedule or intensity.

This happened to me when I was moving from the 8k to 10k SS rows. Up until that point I had been able to maintain the same pace for the SS rows as they increased in length, but then hit a bit of a wall. I'm retired, wasn't sick, had just the "normal" stressors, so I guess I just got to the point where my body couldn't maintain the progression, and I had to back off a bit and consolidate. So I lowered my SS pace by 1 or 2s, persevered (aka ground out the meters at whatever pace I could manage), and then came out fine a few weeks later, even lowering my pace slightly in the last week or two. I don't recall any difference in my intervals during that stretch. YMMV and all that.

Week 17

10.5k - after a few small, recent, and pleasant surprises, I set out 1-2s faster and even sped up another second in the last 500m.

8x500 2r - first interval conservative, then the rest 1s faster than the same session in week 11. Despite how I felt at times, it was almost all Z2 (UT1), with just a couple of minutes total in Z3 (AT/TR).

2x15min 2r - I had a slightly positive (0.7s) split in the 3x10min 2r a couple of weeks ago, so I started 1s slower this time and still had a slightly positive (0.6s) split this time. I didn't feel great, but didn't feel particularly bad, either. Oh well.