The Two Types of Training

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 10th, 2010, 1:39 pm

KevJGK wrote:9.5 - 9.75 spi is what the WP calls for at 16 & 18 spm at my reference pace and it feels exactly right; exactly as MC describes it "tough but doable".

Sure we can all pull a few strokes at a much higher spi but whats the point if we can't maintain it? 16 spi would be suicide as part of an endurance session for me.
Why would you want to practice rowing badly?

So that you will be slow?

If at 190 lbs. you are only pulling 9.5 SPI in your low rate rowing, you are doing something terribly wrong.

Post a video rowing 16-18 spm at 9.5 SPI.

Let's take a look.

As I mentioned, I would guess that you are not using your legs as you should.

Your timing is bad.

No reason to make bad habits permanent by practicing them!

Foundationally, rowing is about skeletal-muscular capacities and technical skills.

It isn't about endurance.

First take good strokes.

Then learn to row well habitually, unconsciously, and with great endurance.

Heck, if you are going to row 9.5 SPI, at least row 10 MPS and rate 27 spm.

Then at least you will be doing something positive and useful, like learning an efficient ratio.

That won't solve your problem with effectiveness, though.

Right now your rowing is screamingly ineffective.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on March 10th, 2010, 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 10th, 2010, 1:43 pm

hjs wrote:he also gave up on his bet with me
No, I haven't.

I still think I'll hit all of my targets.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

nysaag
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by nysaag » March 10th, 2010, 2:00 pm

hjs wrote:he also gave up on his bet with me
ranger wrote:No, I haven't.

I still think I'll hit all of my targets.

ranger
Thinking isn't doing. Pay up.

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Citroen
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by Citroen » March 10th, 2010, 2:44 pm

nysaag wrote:Thinking isn't doing. Pay up.
You must be new here. Don't feed the troll.

KevJGK
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by KevJGK » March 10th, 2010, 3:14 pm

ranger wrote: Heck, if you are going to row 9.5 SPI, at least row 10 MPS and rate 27 spm.
Totally impossible for me.

Is that your new goal?
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johnlvs2run
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by johnlvs2run » March 10th, 2010, 4:14 pm

ranger wrote:Why would you want to practice rowing badly?

So that you will be slow?
Good question, because spi = rowing badly, rowing slow.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2

snowleopard
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by snowleopard » March 10th, 2010, 4:51 pm

John Rupp wrote:
ranger wrote:Why would you want to practice rowing badly?

So that you will be slow?
Good question, because spi = rowing badly, rowing slow.
SPI is neither good nor bad. It's just watts/rating. It has no moral connotations.

SPI is still SPI if you are rowing well, rowing fast.

Montanaandy
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by Montanaandy » March 10th, 2010, 6:01 pm

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Nuggets of wisdom from Ranger Rich...

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johnlvs2run
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by johnlvs2run » March 10th, 2010, 6:07 pm

snowleopard wrote:It's just watts/rating. It has no moral connotations.
The spi is a measure of inefficiency, and therefore is a measure of rowing badly.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2

snowleopard
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by snowleopard » March 10th, 2010, 6:47 pm

John Rupp wrote:
snowleopard wrote:It's just watts/rating. It has no moral connotations.
The spi is a measure of inefficiency, and therefore is a measure of rowing badly.
How is it a measure of inefficiency? What is it about watts/rating that you find so difficult to grasp? Choose any split (watts) you like, divide it by the rating and you get the SPI. It doesn't measure anything.

Tell y' what. You're a great advocate of 8 mps being efficient. A 1:44 split at 36 spm is 8 mps and an SPI of 8.64.

So, what are you saying here? 8 mps is efficient but an SPI of 8.64 is inefficient for the same watts and rating? If we apply your, er, "logic", 8 mps is inefficient and rowing badly.

Get back to me when you know what you're talking about. I won't hold my breath.

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 10th, 2010, 7:01 pm

KevJGK wrote:
ranger wrote: Heck, if you are going to row 9.5 SPI, at least row 10 MPS and rate 27 spm.
Totally impossible for me.

Is that your new goal?
You can't row 1:51 @ 27 spm (10 MPS, 9.5 SPI)?

At all?

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 10th, 2010, 7:04 pm

snowleopard wrote:SPI is still SPI if you are rowing well, rowing fast.
You mean a low SPI is still a low SPI if you are rowing fast?

Well...

First of all, 1:51 is not fast.

Second of all, I was suggesting that if Kevin isn't going to work on effectiveness, then he should work on efficiency (ratio, high rate, etc.).

Get it?

A heavyweight rowing 9.5 SPI at 16-18 spm is neither work on effectiveness nor work on efficiency.

It is just bad training.

Nothing wrong with rowing 10 MPS at a low SPI.

It just isn't work on effectiveness (Level 4).

It's work on efficiency (Level 3).

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by snowleopard » March 10th, 2010, 7:07 pm

ranger wrote:
Trollboy wrote:SPI is still SPI if you are rowing well, rowing fast.
You mean a low SPI is still a low SPI if you are rowing fast?

Well...

First of all, 1:51 is not fast.

Second of all, I was suggesting that if Kevin isn't going to work on effectiveness, then he should work on efficiency (ratio, high rate, etc.).

Get it?

A heavyweight rowing 9.5 SPI at 16-18 spm is neither work on effectiveness nor work on efficiency.

It is just bad training.
Don't paraphrase in such a distorted manner. It's rude, ignorant and stupid :roll:

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 10th, 2010, 7:08 pm

Kevin--

Can you take a video of your rowing?

That will tell the story.

You are doing something terribly wrong technically.

Rowing pretty fast just isn't that hard, if you do it with sound technique.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 10th, 2010, 7:13 pm

snowleopard wrote:SPI doesn't measure anything
Astonishingly ignorant.

Do you row?

Or just type.

:D :D

Row 10K at 16 SPI.

Then row 10K at 8 SPI.

Rate whatever you would like.

Report back here about the differences.

How did the two rows feel?

ranger
Last edited by ranger on March 10th, 2010, 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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