Ranger's training thread

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 18th, 2010, 5:25 am

lancs wrote:
ranger wrote:If....
At some point I'm guessing that even an arrogant, narcissistic, compulsive liar like you will have to stop relying on 'ifs'...
No "ifs" here at all.

Just facts, performances:
ranger wrote:Over the last decade, it is impossible for my verified rowing to be more distinguished.

This last year (2010), even though I was in my last year in my age and weight divison, I had the best verified, race venue, 2K time by six seconds, even though I didn't even prepare for it.

I had the best time in my age and weight division last year (2009), too, and again, without preparing for it.

I had the best time in my age and weight division in 2003, too (6:30), in WR time.

I had the best time in my age and weight division in 2004, too (6:28), in WR time.

In 2007, I had the best time in my age and weight division, too.

In 2006, I rowed as a heavyweight and pulled 6:29.7.

In 2002, I rowed as a heavyweight and pulled 6:27.5.

In any given year, among all of the masters and veteran rowers, 30-59, I presume several thousand, there are only seven other rowers who can have the best 2K time in their age and weight divisions.

This last year, none of them were British.

Two were American (Steve Krum and Paul Seibach).

Siebach is a WR-holder; Krum rowed right on WR pace.

Given the steam of distractions in any normal life, and given my project of learning how to row with a good OTW stroke, and therefore my commitment to foundational, low rate rowing, and work on technique, nonetheless, over the last ten years, I had the best time in my age and weight division as a lightweight in 2003, 2004, 2007, 2009, and 2010, and pulled sub-6:30 in 2002 and 2006, as a heavyweight.
ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by lancs » July 18th, 2010, 5:54 am

I don't dispute your impressive past track record. Any ex-WR holder should be respected. I just think it's important to point out that you have been unable to beat a 'soft' WR in your current age group and that you have never once produced any piece of evidence that you are anywhere near capable of rowing quicker than 6:40. Ever. So your talk of 6:12s and the like is just complete and utter bullshit.

You're the quickest erger in a group of about 7 old blokes. Big deal. I'd hope you would be given the several hours of training you supposedly do each day. You're not a WR holder and you've done *nothing* at all in the past 6 years that could be described as exceptional. Nothing at all.

When you fail to show up at both BIRC and WIRC but row as a 77kg 'lwt' at some minor event with 20 other ethers and pull a 6:43, presumably we'll be subjected to yet more lies, predictions and bullshit from you for another 12 months.

I repeat. There's nothing exceptional about your erging, other than your ability to tell non-stop lies...

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by NavigationHazard » July 18th, 2010, 6:34 am

feckandclueless wrote:Great compression and relaxation at the catch, my biggest technical struggle.


(See http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=138799#p138799)

It may or may not be your biggest struggle to fix. I don't believe it's your worst technical fault. That remains your willful, near-total obliviousness to what you're actually doing, as opposed to what you think you might be doing.

No, wait. There's too much predicate...

I've got it: your worst technical fault remains you. Period.

Still, it's possible to isolate a few constructive criticisms. Out of the long list of odd things you're doing on the erg, mistiming the recovery and then jerking up on the early part of the drive is probably going to slow you down the most if/when you do it in a boat.

Here's you at the catch, from your latest greatest xxx-rated erg video.

Image

Before anything else, note the damper lever, clearly set to somewhere between 6 and 7 on your Model D. You've been going on at length about how you're rowing at DF 123. On any reasonably well maintained D I've ever seen, that damper setting ought to yield a DF more like 140-150. Either you're wrong about your DF or you need to clean your machine or both.

Now, the stroke. Yes your shins are short of vertical and your seat is too far back. But those are the least of your problems.

Here's you .25 seconds later (six frames, at a frame rate of 24/sec):

Image

The first thing to notice is how the handle height changes. You've moved the handle back, to be sure. But you've also moved it up a good 4 inches or so.

As long as you're engaging the sprocket, the flywheel on an erg doesn't care what direction the chain that's spinning it might be heading. Your body and your boat however will care.

The only way you can raise the handle like that at the catch -- you've moved it farther than you've moved your seat -- is to pull up as well as back as you're pushing against the foot stretcher with your legs. This means you're using something in addition to your legs at the catch. So far into the drive it's mostly your arms, with some premature commitment of the back. Either/both present(s) problems.

Look at the early arm break. That inevitably weakens the strong connection you normally want to establish at the catch. Moreover, if you do this in a boat wile raising your hands on the drive you'll create problems with your oars. Depending on how you're rigged you'll either find yourself rowing your blades in (i.e. starting the drive before they're sufficiently buried) or digging your blades too deep, or both. And you'll be trying to manage your oars on what should be the strongest part of the drive with bent arms.

Here you are 5 frames later:

Image

At this point you're sitting upright. The bent arms continue. You've already swung your back maybe 15 degrees or so from your catch position. Conclusion: Citroen is right. Contrary to what you've been asserting for the last 30-odd pages of this thread, you're still hauling anchor.

Look at the arc that the handle has been traversing so far. In a boat, you'll have got quite a bit of oar shaft buried along with your blades. All this does is add completely unnecessary drag, along with complicating the business of extracting the blades at the end of the drive. It's called "rowing over a barrel" and it will slow you down.

Finally, the finish:

Image

The main thing here is the non-trivial up-down arc traversed by your handle. I've highlighted it in yellow to make it easy. Think rationally for a minute about oarshaft handles following the same erg-handle arc. Your oars are basically levers, with their fulcrums at the oarlock. Raise the inboard end and the outboard/blade end moves down. I don't know how you're rigged. But I'm guessing that Fluiddesign has you at 289 cm oar length with 91 cm of inboard. This 1:2.18 inboard-outboard ratio means that the blade tip will go down 2.18 inches for every inch you raise the handle. Lift your hands on the drive just 3 inches above square-and-buried at the catch and you're driving the blades 6 1/2 inches too deep Lift them an unnecessary 4 inches and they're going to be nearly 8.7 inches too deep.
That's approaching punting on the Cam, or maybe Venetian gondoliering. It's NOT sculling. I can assure you from personal experience: you want to lever the boat past the oar blades, not up over them.

There's plenty of other stuff going on (cf. the premature knee popup on the recovery, slamming into frontstops as you come into the catch, the praying mantis thing you do with your left hand, etc.). But the above will do. For now.

Here's the original post with the video, back on p. 98 of the thread: http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=138192#p138192
67 MH 6' 6"

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mikvan52
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by mikvan52 » July 18th, 2010, 6:54 am

RE:

by NavigationHazard » July 18th, 2010, 5:34 am

Truly a work of art! Thanks for this excursus on the handle-da-ranger. His flaw is something for all of us to pay attn. to if we have aspirations to row well OTW.

I anxiously await his reply. It should be a tour-de-farce! :)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by mikvan52 » July 18th, 2010, 7:11 am

The following is so comical!

ranger wrote:
jliddel wrote:Race Preparation and Actually Racing are two completely different things
No, they aren't.

Have you ever prepared thoroughly for a 2K, I mean, with things like 1' on 1' off, 8 x 500m, 4 x 1K, 4 x 2K, 5K/6K/30min/10K/60min trials, 5K-4K-3K-2K-1K, etc.?

These sharpening routines are all just races themselves.

HR is pushed to the max.

All thought of improvement is put aside and subordinated to performance.
and this ranger gem:

"Since 2003, I have done almost no training above my anaerobic threshold."
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho!
He, he, he, he, he!

Do we take it then that he has done no intervals since '03? even though he bombards this forum about how ergs so much at high spi??? :? What does he do, Handle down when his heart rate goes up as a preventative measure to avoid "training above (his) AT"

We've discussed this point before:
Rest of the world: Mixes workouts regularly in all training bands
Ranger: The beast at UT

Perhaps if we say: "Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice", he'll go away :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 18th, 2010, 8:03 am

mikvan52 wrote:What does he do, Handle down when his heart rate goes up as a preventative measure to avoid "training above (his) AT"
Certainly.

But that is not the only motivation.

Most of the time, it is to stay relaxed and correct technical faults.

I am not training to improve my fitness.

My fitness is great.

I am training to improve my rowing.

I am drilling on technique.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 18th, 2010, 8:05 am

lancs wrote:I don't dispute your impressive past track record.
But that's all there is, really, our "track record."

The facts.

So, that's that.

Glad we agree.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by bellboy » July 18th, 2010, 8:07 am

Thanks Nav! brilliant stuff. As clinical a disection as iv seen on these pages.Get out of that one Fucko!

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 18th, 2010, 8:08 am

lancs wrote:There's nothing exceptional about your erging
Well, hold that thought for a year until I have raced fully trained and rowing well.

Note what happens.

Then wait 25 years until you are 60 years old and pull a 2K.

And compare.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on July 18th, 2010, 8:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 18th, 2010, 8:31 am

NavigationHazard wrote:
feckandclueless wrote:Great compression and relaxation at the catch, my biggest technical struggle.


(See http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=138799#p138799)

It may or may not be your biggest struggle to fix. I don't believe it's your worst technical fault. That remains your willful, near-total obliviousness to what you're actually doing, as opposed to what you think you might be doing.

No, wait. There's too much predicate...

I've got it: your worst technical fault remains you. Period.

Still, it's possible to isolate a few constructive criticisms. Out of the long list of odd things you're doing on the erg, mistiming the recovery and then jerking up on the early part of the drive is probably going to slow you down the most if/when you do it in a boat.

Here's you at the catch, from your latest greatest xxx-rated erg video.

Image

Before anything else, note the damper lever, clearly set to somewhere between 6 and 7 on your Model D. You've been going on at length about how you're rowing at DF 123. On any reasonably well maintained D I've ever seen, that damper setting ought to yield a DF more like 140-150. Either you're wrong about your DF or you need to clean your machine or both.

Now, the stroke. Yes your shins are short of vertical and your seat is too far back. But those are the least of your problems.

Here's you .25 seconds later (six frames, at a frame rate of 24/sec):

Image

The first thing to notice is how the handle height changes. You've moved the handle back, to be sure. But you've also moved it up a good 4 inches or so.

As long as you're engaging the sprocket, the flywheel on an erg doesn't care what direction the chain that's spinning it might be heading. Your body and your boat however will care.

The only way you can raise the handle like that at the catch -- you've moved it farther than you've moved your seat -- is to pull up as well as back as you're pushing against the foot stretcher with your legs. This means you're using something in addition to your legs at the catch. So far into the drive it's mostly your arms, with some premature commitment of the back. Either/both present(s) problems.

Look at the early arm break. That inevitably weakens the strong connection you normally want to establish at the catch. Moreover, if you do this in a boat wile raising your hands on the drive you'll create problems with your oars. Depending on how you're rigged you'll either find yourself rowing your blades in (i.e. starting the drive before they're sufficiently buried) or digging your blades too deep, or both. And you'll be trying to manage your oars on what should be the strongest part of the drive with bent arms.

Here you are 5 frames later:

Image

At this point you're sitting upright. The bent arms continue. You've already swung your back maybe 15 degrees or so from your catch position. Conclusion: Citroen is right. Contrary to what you've been asserting for the last 30-odd pages of this thread, you're still hauling anchor.

Look at the arc that the handle has been traversing so far. In a boat, you'll have got quite a bit of oar shaft buried along with your blades. All this does is add completely unnecessary drag, along with complicating the business of extracting the blades at the end of the drive. It's called "rowing over a barrel" and it will slow you down.

Finally, the finish:

Image

The main thing here is the non-trivial up-down arc traversed by your handle. I've highlighted it in yellow to make it easy. Think rationally for a minute about oarshaft handles following the same erg-handle arc. Your oars are basically levers, with their fulcrums at the oarlock. Raise the inboard end and the outboard/blade end moves down. I don't know how you're rigged. But I'm guessing that Fluiddesign has you at 289 cm oar length with 91 cm of inboard. This 1:2.18 inboard-outboard ratio means that the blade tip will go down 2.18 inches for every inch you raise the handle. Lift your hands on the drive just 3 inches above square-and-buried at the catch and you're driving the blades 6 1/2 inches too deep Lift them an unnecessary 4 inches and they're going to be nearly 8.7 inches too deep.
That's approaching punting on the Cam, or maybe Venetian gondoliering. It's NOT sculling. I can assure you from personal experience: you want to lever the boat past the oar blades, not up over them.

There's plenty of other stuff going on (cf. the premature knee popup on the recovery, slamming into frontstops as you come into the catch, the praying mantis thing you do with your left hand, etc.). But the above will do. For now.

Here's the original post with the video, back on p. 98 of the thread: http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=138192#p138192

Yes, thanks for that, Nav.

I am deligfhted with my technique now.

I wouldn't want to change a thing for at least another year.

Nice, steady 2:10 @ 23 spm (10 MPS) OTW this morning.

I even got to 2:07 @ 22 spm.

That's plenty good to win the Head of the Charles.

Nice, steady 1:48 @ 23 spm (12 SPI) this morning on the erg at 75% HRR.

That's in the range of 10 seconds per 500m better than my 60s lwt peers.

Sure, we can all get better, but I certainly don't _need_ to.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on July 18th, 2010, 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 18th, 2010, 8:42 am

Nav--

FYI

Image

Image

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Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 18th, 2010, 8:55 am

Navigation Hazard wrote:you want to lever the boat past the oar blades, not up over them.
OTW, the depth of my blades is fine-not always perfect, certainly, but no major problems.

I'll get some video to illustrate.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 18th, 2010, 9:00 am

Nah.

From my "track record," it appears that I have the greatest coach in the world.

Delighted with that.

I wouldn't want to change coaches, either.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 18th, 2010, 9:02 am

Beautifully warm, calm mornings on the Huron River now.

12K OTW this morning, after 12K on the erg.

Up to Door County, WI, for three weeks vacation, by way of the ferry across the Lake Michigan, on Thursday.

Can't wait to get out on some big stretches of open water with my Fluid.

Image

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Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by nycbone » July 18th, 2010, 9:37 am

Rich is 'Member of the Day' on the C2 log book main page.

Congrats...
Now listen to me, all of you. You are all condemned men. We keep you alive to serve this ship. So row well, and live.

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