Pondering the Beginner Pete Plan

[iain]

...this might be being skewed by the fact you're not doing them all at the same rate or output though - I've just normalised the average Wmin to r30.

1:55.8 225W@ r29 -> 7.7Wmin -> r30 = 232W
1:55.1 230W -> 7.9 -> 237W
1:48.5 274W -> 8.3 -> 250W

If I were in your shoes, I'd look to do my next set of 500's at 8.3Wmin for them all (pick a rate) - if you then can up the rate on the last one and keep the close to the same stroke power/quality then that's, I believe, more the gist around the incremental improvements and the "give what you've got left to the last rep" approach.

Good spot. Some people raise work per stroke with the rating, so this might not translate as easily as this analysis suggests. Personally my work per stroke remains fairly constant, but declines through the reps (which I compensate with increased rating). I would suggest that you prioritise increasing the rating as this is the main benefit of the 500s, although you should try and retain stroke quality at the higher ratings. I agree that 1:54 should be well within your ability next time, but a full second increase in pace is alot and extrapolating from the final rep to the full set is often misleading.

[DJ1972]

...this might be being skewed by the fact you're not doing them all at the same rate or output though - I've just normalised the average Wmin to r30.

1:55.8 225W@ r29 -> 7.7Wmin -> r30 = 232W
1:55.1 230W -> 7.9 -> 237W
1:48.5 274W -> 8.3 -> 250W

If I were in your shoes, I'd look to do my next set of 500's at 8.3Wmin for them all (pick a rate) - if you then can up the rate on the last one and keep the close to the same stroke power/quality then that's, I believe, more the gist around the incremental improvements and the "give what you've got left to the last rep" approach.

Good spot. Some people raise work per stroke with the rating, so this might not translate as easily as this analysis suggests. Personally my work per stroke remains fairly constant, but declines through the reps (which I compensate with increased rating). I would suggest that you prioritise increasing the rating as this is the main benefit of the 500s, although you should try and retain stroke quality at the higher ratings. I agree that 1:54 should be well within your ability next time, but a full second increase in pace is alot and extrapolating from the final rep to the full set is often misleading.

Thank you both for the input.
This is the dilemma that I face with the speed intervals, either (1) going too fast in the first reps and reducing pace (but not failing to finish) or (2) being conservative but improving each time.

Perhaps I will not get all the benefits with option 2. However, I still believe there is work to do on Watts/stroke, and those weeks ahead will allow me to develop this aspect. From my observation, an increased rating may be more difficult in terms of stroke quality and it also elevates my HR.
Both aspects to work on and to improve!

[iain]

Thank you both for the input.

This is the dilemma that I face with the speed intervals, either (1) going too fast in the first reps and reducing pace (but not failing to finish) or (2) being conservative but improving each time.

Perhaps I will not get all the benefits with option 2. However, I still believe there is work to do on Watts/stroke, and those weeks ahead will allow me to develop this aspect. From my observation, an increased rating may be more difficult in terms of stroke quality and it also elevates my HR.

Pete's philosophy is always to believe you can complete without slowing. You should only need to slow if there is a one-off factor you haven't factored into your target (such as low grade illness). The targets get increasingly challenging until 0.1S/500M is key. It was years of following Pete's plans before I had the consistency to maintain that level of precision, without it I gave up frustrated as 1 or 2 intervals too fast and I had to slow after several cycles of improvement!

You always need to work on both, it is just that 500's are better for rate as the HR never quite peaks. 1k's are about maintaining form at a sustainable rating so are better to focus on increasing the work per stroke. 750's are intermediate and so can be used for either / both. I try and use them to "try out" the higher ratings that I have demonstrated I can maintain. If successful, this can be carried into the 1k's. Please note that there will always be at least 2 Strokes/Min difference between what you can do for 500s and 1k's/2k TTs. This is why they are good for rating as they allow you to push the rating so that a higher rating can feel more comfortable / less hurried for the longer distances.

[PleaseLockIn]

Back to it today. My last row was about 5000m on Jan 30th. I feel like I'm at confessional. Forgive me ergo for I have sinned. It's been 20 days since my last row...

Had a great holiday and tried to stay active. Walked over 12km most days, swam a bit and ran up stairs when I could to get the hr up occasionally. I did drink quite a lot and I don't drink normally, but tried to stick to cocktails and lite beer to mitigate the damage! We did change to a nicer hotel for the last couple of nights with a fancy techno-gym. The rower felt weird so I only did 1,000m. Did some weights, which I rarely do, and felt like a stud when I was leg pressing 160kg with ease until I realised the numbers were in lbs! Still, I increased the weights and enjoyed a few reps, plus some hammys and shoulder presses. May have to incorporate weights into my routine somehow although I'm not a member of a gym, so it may have to be mainly bodyweight exercises.

Today my Fitbit told me that my "readiness is moderate, but you've been pushing yourself recently. Low intensity cardio like cycling and walking can increase blood flow and promote healing". Maybe I overdid it! Or maybe the fact that the Fitbit got confused by the time zone change on the red-eye flight home and gave me zero hours sleep credit for Monday has affected things. Who knows?

Anyway on with the plan. It's supposed to be Week 10.1, but I didn't fancy jumping straight on and doing 9,500m, so I decided to revisit the optional week 9 rows that I missed and do 9.5, 2x10min 2r and see how it feels. Supposed to be at 8k minus 1 second pace, which used to be far too easy but who knows after a break, so I aimed for 2:20 to start with.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	S/M	
20:00	4,461m	2:14.4	144	23
10:00	2,149m	2:19.5	129	23
10:00	2,313m	2:09.7	160	24

Nothing spectacular but I'm very pleased with that after some time off and not knowing where I would be pace wise. It felt good so I upped the pace to 2:10 for the second rep without any trouble. I think I could have done double the distance at the initial pace, but I'll go for week 9.4 tomorrow which is an 8k, take a day off and then crack on with week 10 if things still feel ok. Hr topped out at 117 which is reassuringly low if Fitbit is to be believed.

Good to be back!

Glad you had a great holiday! I would suggest pistol squats/1-leg shrimp squats for squats. For deadlifts, do 1-leg romanians and gradually add weight. Shoulder press - replace with pike pushups or pseudo-planche pushups (and pushups for bench). Biceps - not a lot, perhaps pullups, chinups, etc.
Nordic curls for the hamstrings.

I found front lever work helped with my lat strength especially with straight arms. Planche progressions for tendon strength.

You can progress a lot with callisthenics - some stuff like tucked planche -> planche, 90 degree holds, 1-arm pullups/chinups, etc.

I would suggest 2x strength training a week at least, maybe 3. I do deadlift/OHP with a couple back/leg and arm/chest accessories on the first day. Second day - squat/bench with back/leg and arm/chest accessories. If you have other things, 2x a week should suffice (at least it works for me)

Still, the suggested times for long intervals are far too easy - they should be ~5k pace imo.

Not a bad time! I remember when you did 2:10/2:10/1:59 for 3*2000m 4R intervals - that was pretty strong.

I tried doing 3*10 min 5R intervals at 2:05/2:04/all out, but the gym closed early and I had to walk to get water, ruining my rest. The 1st attempt didn't save but was at 2:05.4 split at r20 (rate capped for r20 test to get into pre-varsity team at university). https://log.concept2.com/profile/2501432/log/98491006 and now I can see why you struggled a lot. You may still be faster than me, in which case - nice work! I wonder if your 7:20 target of 2k in 2025 is too unambitious—maybe sub 7?

I would recommend an HR just to keep things in track and keep yourself honest about your steady state. Considering my numbers... I doubt that 2:18 (as you did in Wk 9) is your UT2 pace. My intervals are nearly as good as yours and 2:27 is my UT2 pace (maybe faster now due to technique improvements) But maybe you're built differently?

DJ1972 - I found training at r20 helped improve my strength and endurance, especially r20 tests. One day you might try a 30r20 TT and see how it goes (this is about 70% of 2k watts). Anyway, congrats on your progress!

Joris - I thought your steady state was relatively slower because you tried keeping it at UT2? I tried doing what you did, aiming at high UT1 for the steady state but it exhausted me too much. Somehow my UT2 pace (using HRR) is almost as quick as your UT1 pace. Interesting. Guess we're different.

I prefer the polarized approach - go very hard on intervals, but pretty easy on steady state.

[Nomark]

Glad you had a great holiday! I would suggest pistol squats/1-leg shrimp squats for squats. For deadlifts, do 1-leg romanians and gradually add weight. Shoulder press - replace with pike pushups or pseudo-planche pushups (and pushups for bench). Biceps - not a lot, perhaps pullups, chinups, etc.
Nordic curls for the hamstrings.

Thanks for the tips, I was struggling to think of useful exercises after pushups so will look those up. Lol

Still, the suggested times for long intervals are far too easy - they should be ~5k pace imo.

Not a bad time! I remember when you did 2:10/2:10/1:59 for 3*2000m 4R intervals - that was pretty strong.

I tried doing 3*10 min 5R intervals at 2:05/2:04/all out, but the gym closed early and I had to walk to get water, ruining my rest. The 1st attempt didn't save but was at 2:05.4 split at r20 (rate capped for r20 test to get into pre-varsity team at university). https://log.concept2.com/profile/2501432/log/98491006 and now I can see why you struggled a lot. You may still be faster than me, in which case - nice work! I wonder if your 7:20 target of 2k in 2025 is too unambitious—maybe sub 7?

Agreed. But this was a "welcome back row". I daresay that if I'd done it a few weeks ago I would have aimed closer to 2:00, despite Pete's advice. Anyway it was more of a confidence booster for me as I had/have no idea how a 9.5km attempt would go after the time off. Building up to it seems sensible, and if I've lost a few seconds, so be it. We will see as week 10.2 is another 3x2k. I will wait until after the long steady state to see whether I can aim to beat my previous time or go more conservative.

Looks like you had a good session. Rate capping complicates things so it's another reason why comparisons are hard.


I've decided to not set myself a goal apart from to keep at it and improve. Partly because, as you indirectly pointed out, I haven't been doing this long enough to know what is achievable or realistic, so I'll just keep plugging away. If that gets me to 7:30 or below so be it, but I'm not in a rush (yet! My opinion might change if I start to plateau!)

I would recommend an HR just to keep things in track and keep yourself honest about your steady state. Considering my numbers... I doubt that 2:18 (as you did in Wk 9) is your UT2 pace. My intervals are nearly as good as yours and 2:27 is my UT2 pace (maybe faster now due to technique improvements) But maybe you're built differently?

I did consider getting one, but I decided I'm not bothered enough to track things that closely, and I'm also a bit too data driven already so it might be counter productive, where I'm rowing based on HT rather than feel. My Fitbit approximations will do for now. This is because I'm not aiming to compete, it's just fun improving. I'm also not training at an elite level so whether my SS is slightly too fast or my hr slightly too high doesn't bother me or affect my recovery because I'm just not doing the volumes that would matter, as long as I am energized for the intervals sessions, I'm happy.

We are all built differently, but I also push a bit beyond SS pace because I feel better for it mentally. It might not be optimum but it makes me feel like I've done some hard work which is important to *me*.

[Dangerscouse]

We are all built differently, but I also push a bit beyond SS pace because I feel better for it mentally. It might not be optimum but it makes me feel like I've done some hard work which is important to *me*.

I'm glad to read this. You should always aim towards that sweet spot of what makes you happy and what makes you more productive/efficient. Sometimes the accepted wisdom isn't always right, on a micro and macro level ime.

[DJ1972]

DJ1972 - I found training at r20 helped improve my strength and endurance, especially r20 tests. One day you might try a 30r20 TT and see how it goes (this is about 70% of 2k watts). Anyway, congrats on your progress!

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
30:00.0	6,938m	2:09.7	160	851	20	159
6:00.0	1,408m	2:07.8	168	876	20	151
12:00.0	1,382m	2:10.2	158	845	20	158
18:00.0	1,380m	2:10.4	158	842	20	159
24:00.0	1,386m	2:09.8	160	849	20	163
30:00.0	1,382m	2:10.2	158	845	20	164

I was thinking of adding this specific session recently. It was quite harder than I had thought, particularly on the legs. I started too fast. The last 10 min was also difficult as tiredness kicked in, and I had to focus on good technique to keep pace.

[p_b82]

You may still be faster than me, in which case - nice work! I wonder if your 7:20 target of 2k in 2025 is too unambitious—maybe sub 7?

You do know that typically less than 20% of our (mine and Nomark's) HWT age group complete a sub 7 each year as per the C2 rankings. The 75th percentile of all male HWT rowers this season is "only" 7:12

I get that you like ambitious targets, but I think you also need to temper that with some realism.

I would recommend an HR just to keep things in track and keep yourself honest about your steady state. Considering my numbers... I doubt that 2:18 (as you did in Wk 9) is your UT2 pace. My intervals are nearly as good as yours and 2:27 is my UT2 pace (maybe faster now due to technique improvements) But maybe you're built differently?

Your HR and pace has no comparison to any-one other than you - you are right you are built differently to every-one (we're all unique after all) - and we all have a different training/work/study/relaxation schedules.

I know I mentioned this the other day, but I took a look at your interval you posted and again I really think if your focus is to row OTW / in a crew you ought to work on your consistency as a bit of a priority.

My dad went as far as to say a less powerful consistent rower was preferable than a more powerful inconsistent one in the boat - he rowed for the army as a young man so I'm making the assumption he knew a little about what he was talking about there. (at 5'11 on a good day he probably fell into that category to get his seat.)

Consistency of stroke matter absolutely nothing on the erg which is why it rarely gets mentioned here - but I know your targets are all about qualifying for a seat in the boat - so you can't just focus on the average numbers at the end - the how the average is generated is also important for you.

I'm not all that consistent, I can only get about 1min of a flat line rate with the pm5 maths - but thinking on if I were trying to improve, maybe using a metronome might help if it's a timing thing behind the inconsistency, something in the eyeline to be aware of - or perhaps find some music/playlists that has a consistent tempo for the whole session? At 20spm a 1:2 ratio is a constant 3s loop.