Ranger's training thread

[Nosmo]

Sure, jokers always distance themselves from the real world.

Good to know you are capable of irony too.

[ranger]

The best Open women do 1:48 pace for 5K OTErg, 2:00 pace at the HOCR.

So this 12 seconds per 500m gap between erg times and OTW times seems to show up in various places.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Sure, it's only for brief moments, but I can now get to 8 SPI OTW, up and down the rate ladder.

I got to 1:54 @ 29 spm OTW today.

Startling!

Since I rarely do much better than 1:42 @ 29 spm (11.4 SPI) on the erg, 1:54 @ 29 spm OTW is close to a theoretical limit for me--12 seconds per 500m over my erg pace at the same rate.



8 SPI @ 38 spm is 1:44.5.

I'll see if I can get to that OTW over the next few days.

When I am all trained up for it, I think I can rate 38 spm for 1K OTW, just as I can rate 38 spm for 1K on the erg.

In terms of effort at some rate, they seem the same to me.

ranger

How can you say they seem the same if you don't train with any 500's or 1ks OTW? Does "seem" mean "guess" in the ranger dictionary?

I also find it fascinating that everything about sculling for you is predicated by what "is done" on the erg.
Tell me how you practice the release and the feather on the erg again
How about a clean extraction of the blade?

If you care what I "think".
I "think" that, even based on your 12 second margin over the erg: "1:54 @ 29 spm OTW ( ) close to a theoretical limit"
is underselling yourself. You are faster than me on the erg. According to you, I should have a 12 second margin too. But I don't. => I do go faster than 1:54/500 pace when I'm at 29 spm OTW. Your theoretical limit should be faster than what I'm currently capable of doing, don't you think?... based on the erg

The only thing we can conclude is that your "identical" stroke that you employ on the water and in the bat cave needs some work if it's to prove effective on the water.


BTW: I continue to speed up w/o using the erg much this summer.

13th Jul
Connecticut River, NH
07:49 am

500 meters - 1:46.6 ~ 34 spm ~ 60 strokes

It felt great.
The pace was fairly even. I need work on the next-to-last 10 strokes

Rich what do you do for 60 strokes at any rate?.. Or is 60 strokes not part of any "ladder" your willing to reveal to us, your rapt audience.

[mikvan52]

one other thing:

When, again, will it be that you'll scull 60-70 consecutive strokes at 38 spm on the water?
"In the fall" of _ _ _ _

Two thousand when?

Then you'll be half way to 1k because at 38 spm you'll need 4 x 38 strokes to cover 1k in 4 minutes... a time you've yet to accomplish, if I'm not mistaken.

Why not (merely) use a 30 spm cadence? That's only 120 strokes...

Rich (not a rhetorical question, I truly interested) : Have you ever rowed 120 strokes in the Fluid at an even agressive stroke rating? What happened?

I'd love to see you at some venue in the future either the erg or the water. I have not had the opportunity. Maybe when were both in our 60's.

[ranger]

You are faster than me on the erg.

Nah.

When we hold our technique together, we stroke about the same on the erg (12 SPI).

I am only faster than you over various distances because I can rate up.

We have different aerobic capacities.

I think I will soon stroke as well as you OTW, too.

When that happens, the same gap in rate will show up there.

We will stroke the same.

But I will rate up.

You won't.

ranger

[ranger]

Rich what do you do for 60 strokes at any rate?

I haven't been racing yet in my OTW rowing.

I have just been learning to row.

We are at different points in our OTW training.

So we can't really compare notes at the moment.

As I mentioned, I'll try some local sprint races next spring to get some race experience and then do a 1K at the Masters Nationals next summer.

Then, you'll know what I can do over 1K.

I think I'll do sub-1:50, but who knows?

It is apparent that you could do sub-1:50 for 1K OTW, too, if you could hold your technique together and rate up over 31 spm.

But you can't.

You are also limited to 12 SPI @ 31 spm (1:38) for 1K on the erg.

This fall, I think I'll get to 12 SPI @ 40 spm (1:30) for 1K on the erg.

I can rate up.

You can't.

ranger

[PaulH]

I am only faster than you over various distances because I can rate up.

Name two such distances.

[Carl Watts]

Still waiting for those IND_V results to be posted.

I guess it will happen, but only after you turn 60 as that will make you look good relative to your competition.

[mikvan52]

I am only faster than you over various distances because I can rate up.

Name two such distances.

[mikvan52]

Rich what do you do for 60 strokes at any rate?

I haven't been racing yet in my OTW rowing.

Rich: Do you mean to say in your rate pyramids you have never doen even 60 consecutive strokes w/o stopping?

And you're advising me on how to row an OTW 5k?
Classic!

Do you have any candidates for next year's 1st race? Midwest region USROWING masters?

You should come to the Black Fly on your way to Craftsbury: when you finally relent and decide that you can do it all on you own.

[Nosmo]

You should come to the Black Fly on your way to Craftsbury: when you finally relent and decide that you can do it all on you own.

That was this year.
He won't do the Black Fly on the way to Craftsbury because then he won't race OTW. And he won't do a five day course at Craftsbury because he would have to race there too (and would probably get beaten by a 16 year old).

[whp4]

You should come to the Black Fly on your way to Craftsbury: when you finally relent and decide that you can do it all on you own.

That was this year.
He won't do the Black Fly on the way to Craftsbury because then he won't race OTW. And he won't do a five day course at Craftsbury because he would have to race there too (and would probably get beaten by a 16 year old girl).

You forgot a word

[Nosmo]

You should come to the Black Fly on your way to Craftsbury: when you finally relent and decide that you can do it all on you own.

That was this year.
He won't do the Black Fly on the way to Craftsbury because then he won't race OTW. And he won't do a five day course at Craftsbury because he would have to race there too (and would probably get beaten by a 16 year old girl).

You forgot a word

Well actually I doubt that. He will beat most of the field for sure.
And actually there really is no shame in being beat(en) by a 16 year old if he rows well. Its just that ranger won't be able to maintain his image of superiority if he actually gets out and races.
A 16 year won the Head of the Hosmer last time I was at Craftsbury. Got me by 10 seconds. The Juniors took 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th. I think three beat me in the 250m sprints.

[mikvan52]

He will beat most of the field for sure.
And actually there really is no shame in being beat(en)

No shame at all. The trouble with the maestro is he has to win the first time out.

Heaven help him too... they'd record his times and the comparisons would start... (ouch!)

http://craftsbury.com/sculling/events/hosmer.htm

Jun 10 - 15, 2007
Men
1 Michael van Beuren 11:18


Fastest Campers - All Time
Women: Kacey Elfstrom 12:05, 07-29-2005
Men: Anders Swanson 11:02, 06-23-2000

They've even got and HOH Archive in the left column....

Rich, the nude emperor, will never go............(reverse psycho. gambit!)
You've still got time to go this summer!

[ranger]

Yea.

From the discussion here, it is clear:

9 SPI is my limit for sustained OTW rowing, 2:00 @ 22 spm, not 8 SPI, 2:00 @ 25 spm.

This explains why it is so important for OTW rowers to do a lot of rowing at low rates (22 spm), working on technique.

So, lots of work to do still.

I can now do what I need to do to match this kind of rowing on the erg (1:48 @ 22 spm in and around a UT2 HR), 12 seconds per 500m faster at the same rate than 2:00 @ 22 spm).

I just need to keep working my OTW technique until I can do the same there.

Wow.

At my age and physical capacity, doing 2:00 @ 22 spm OTW at UT2 would be quite an affair, given that 2:01 pace was the winning time for the 60s/F 1K at last year's Masters Nationals.

The difficulty faced by the old foggie scullers like Dietz, Spousta, and Mike VB is that, OTW, they can still do 9 SPI technically.

But they no longer have the physical capacity to sustain this rowing at 22 spm with a UT2 HR.

With their massive losses of aerobic capacity over the years, 2:00 @ 22 spm OTW and 1:48 @ 22 spm OTErg are no longer UT2/FM pace for them.

They are AT/5K pace.

They can't do 1:48 @ 22 spm OTErg at UT2.

And they don't just miss it by a little.

They miss it by 10 seconds per 500, two training bands.

For 60s lightweights (or 60s heavyweights with their time adjusted for weight), they can't do much better than 1:58 @ 17 spm for UT2 on the erg, which is comparable to 2:10 @ 18 spm OTW.

They lower the rate five spms, and with this loss in rate, the pace drops 10 seconds per 500m.

They can't rate up.

C'est dommage.

If you don't use it, you lose it.

ranger