Ranger's training thread

[mikvan52]

He thinks he rows well OTW, without an observer, how does he know?

My speed coach, Garmin, etc.

Hey.

You row well OTW when you go fast.

Easy as that.

ranger

Really, Rich!

Can we play by new rules.

How do we know how fast you cover 500m OTW .. or any other distance if you won't report it.
We're asking about your training. Not "raced" workouts.

I reported mine today. You could do the same... Just an idea... You'd get more participants on this thread

[ranger]

Mike--

If you want to do 18:30 at the HOCR, you need to be comfortable rating 30 spm, both OTW and on the erg, while holding your technique together.

That means rating 30 spm at your anaerobic threshold.

If I were you, that's what I would be working on.

Hey.

Come to think of it, that's what I _am_ working on.

A good OTW stroke feels like 12 SPI on the erg.

So, what you need to do is learn to rate 30 spm @ 12 SPI on the erg, with your HR at your anaerobic threshold, using a good OTW stroke.

30 spm @ 12 SPI is 360 watts or 1:39 pace, my target for 5K on the erg for this next year.

That is, you need to bring down your 5K score on the erg by a minute and a half, about nine seconds per 500m.

The erg would be a nice place to practice this, given that doing this OTW is even more difficult, due to changing conditions (temperature, wind, course, competition, etc.).

Mike--

Your two biggest weaknesses are physical capacity and training, the two most important elements of boat speed.

It is the erg that confronts these elements of boat speed rather than others.

So the erg should be your major concern.

Repeating 2Ks @ 1:39 might be the best way to train for this.

Zatopek 2Ks?

10 x 2K @ 1:39, rating 30 spm?

Good luck with it!

ranger

[ranger]

We're asking about your training. Not "raced" workouts.

Mike--

I have told you about my training OTW.

I am just learning to row, drilling on technique.

I am not doing "pieces."

I am just putting in the meters, shaking out kinks that are slowing me down and looking for ways of gaining more boatt speed.

OTW, I am not working on fitness.

My fitness is great.

I use the erg to work on fitness.

No need for me to be straining physically when I am rowing OTW.

It just isn't in my interest, given where I am in my project of learning to row.

And anyway.

How to strain physically is not something that I have to learn.

I know how to do that just fine, thanks.

That's my major strength.

I am working on my weaknesses.

You only get better by working on your weaknesses.

You don't get better by parading your strengths.

Training is not a performance.

It is an opportunity to get better.

ranger

[ranger]

Mike--

This fall and winter, I am going to pull 12 SPI @ 30 spm for 5K on the erg.

16:30

That's about a minute better than anyone my age and weight has ever done.

That wiil be a _great_ physical foundation for a solid performance at the HOCR next fall.

Beyond that, all I can do is keep putting in the meters OTW, working on technique.

After my project on the erg is complete next winter, and I have pulled 6:16 @ 60 for 2K on the erg, I can shift my emphasis entirely to my OTW rowing in the spring, summer, and fall of 2011, and get some OTW racing experience, both sprints and head races, in preparation for a first try at the HOCR in October.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Mike--

If you want to do 18:30 at the HOCR, you need to be comfortable rating 30 spm, both OTW and on the erg, while holding your technique together.

That means rating 30 spm at your anaerobic threshold.

If I were you, that's what I would be working on.

A good OTW stroke feels like 12 SPI on the erg.

So, what you need to do is learn to rate 30 spm @ 12 SPI on the erg, with your HR at your anaerobic threshold, using a good OTW stroke.

30 spm @ 12 SPI is 360 watts or 1:39 pace, my target for 5K on the erg for this next year.

That is, you need to bring down your 5K score on the erg by a minute and a half, about nine seconds per 500m.

The erg would be a nice place to practice this, given that doing this OTW is even more difficult, due to changing conditions (temperature, wind, course, competition, etc.).

Mike--

Your two biggest weaknesses are physical capacity and training, the two most important elements of boat speed.

It is the erg that confronts these elements of boat speed rather than others.

So the erg should be your major concern.

Repeating 2Ks @ 1:39 might be the best way to train for this.


10 x 2K @ 1:39, rating 30 spm?

Rich:
I want to win the premier American Head Race. During a summer training cycle, this can only be done by producing workouts on the water that build me up for the task.
I do AT workouts on the water at 30 spm and above. I'll paste one in here from last week. You've seen it already. It is of more value than anything that can be done on the erg for where I am with my training.

8:16 am
500m - 1:52.2 - 31.5 spm - 59 strokes

8:22 am
500m - 1:50.8 - 34.0 spm - 62 strokes

8:34 am
500m - 1:51.5 - 33.5 spm - 62 strokes

8:48 am
500m - 1:52.4 - 34.5 spm - 61 strokes

1500m cooldown


Do you think that any winning, older masters OTW athlete is on the erg at this part of the training cycle? If you do, you are mistaken.
At any rate, flashing words about of unachievable workouts for either of us does not impress: "10 x 2k at 1:39 pace"

I'll stick with trying to get OTW workouts like the following to go better: (I sense that they are ones you have never tried)

#1: 4 to 10 x 500m @ 30-36 spm at AT
#2: many repeats of 20 strokes on 30 strokes off at AT

If a sculler were to primarily focus on the erg to execute such workouts it would encourage him to open his back too early~ much the way you do in your videos of erging... This is one reason why you are slower than me OTW and are "just learning to row".
Your working plan is: "Go to the erg first thing each day to work on rate vs watts". In contrast:
All I do is to focus on how to make a 1x move over the surface of the water (not through it).

We have nothing of substance to talk about any longer.
May you find a “good OTW stroke” which can be repeated over and over w/o a break while rowing on the water.

[ranger]

Wow.

I have had to have the patience of Job to get it done (seven years of hard work!), but at low drag (123 df.), with high hands at the catch, and big legs at the footplate, I now do 1:42 @ 27 spm (12.5 SPI) in my distance rowing, just stroking along, HR in the middle 160s, so not even threatening my anaerobic threshold (172 bpm).

My distance rowing has arrived!

This stroke is now a pure OTW stroke, with relaxed shoulders and big, quick legs at the catch to give the boat a long run.

This "arrival" of my distance rowing is a multiple boon.

First, I now do a good OTW stroke every time I push and pull, both OTW and OTErg. So now, all of my rowing is work on technique.

Second, I can now return to doing my distance rowing with a high HR (165 bpm) as I did back in 2003. I can really start to work hard without disturbing my progress with technique.

Third, rating 27 spm, day in and day out, on the erg, and if I can, OTW, too, I no longer row at low rates at all and am perfectly positioned to push that rate to 30 spm when I shorten the distance to 5K.

Fourth, pulling 12.5 SPI, my stroke on the erg is not only technically correct, it is just what I need in terms of stroking power to feel exactly like a good OTW stroke. In fact, it is even a bit stronger. If I do a lot of 1:42 @ 27 spm on the erg, my stroking OTW should feel easy!

Finally, since it is only the middle of July, I still have a month and a half of hard distance rowing that I can do this summer before I have to lift the rate and start sharpening for BIRC on September 1st.

My goal for a daily regimen over the next month and a half will be to put in 20K a day on the erg just before dawn and then 20K a day OTW just after dawn, with breakfast an hour rest in between.

I will no longer cross-train.

I will use my OTW rowing as cross-training for my erging and my erging as cross-training for my OTW rowing.

Hi-yo, Silver.

The Lone Ranger

[ranger]

Distance/sub-threshold rowing at 1:42 is 10 seconds per 500m better than anyone my age and weight--to this point--has been able to do.

Nice!

ranger

[ranger]

I do AT workouts on the water at 30 spm and above. I'll paste one in here from last week. You've seen it already. It is of more value than anything that can be done on the erg for where I am with my training.

8:16 am
500m - 1:52.2 - 31.5 spm - 59 strokes

8:22 am
500m - 1:50.8 - 34.0 spm - 62 strokes

8:34 am
500m - 1:51.5 - 33.5 spm - 62 strokes

8:48 am
500m - 1:52.4 - 34.5 spm - 61 strokes

1500m cooldown

Mike--

AT workouts are repeat 2-3K rows or hard 5Ks.

They aren't 500s.

Even 2K training would be 8 x 500m, not 4 x 500m.

The workout above is AN, not AT.

You miss it by two training bands.

Let's see 4 x 2-3K at 2:00 pace and 30 spm.

That's what you need to be doing.

Don't rate down; rate up.

Don't cut the distance down; ramp it up.

Don't skimp on the repetitions.

Do a full set.

ranger

[ranger]

Do you think that any winning, older masters OTW athlete is on the erg at this part of the training cycle?

If you want to beat someone at something, you don't do what they have already done and are therefore already doing better than you.

That just plays into their hands.

You stop looking down the course, sideways, and over your shoulder and do what _you_ need to do to get the job done.

If you want to get better, work on _your_ weaknesses, not someone else's strengths.

ranger

[ranger]

On the erg, 1:42 is Mike VB's 2K race pace and _four_ seconds per 500m faster that the 60s lwt hammer row at WIRC 2010, which was won in 1:46/7:04.

I am now doing 1:42 as distance rowing, at 27 spm (UT1).

When I race 5K, I will do 30-32 spm (AT)

When I race a 2K, I will do 35-37 spm (TR).

When I do 8 x 500m and 1K, I will do 38-40 spm (AN).

ranger

[mikvan52]

Do a full set.

You know I do what you call full sets:
Here are two from this month

HOCR interval work ==> 2(5 x 2'on/2' off))
by mikvan52 on Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:49 am



a workout where the 2' on pieces were at HOCR race rate and race pace...

2k warmup

Thu July 1
7:46 am

2' - 1:59.2 - 28.5 - 57 -503
(2:56-18.0- 35-340 ....the rest interval

2' - 1:58 - 27.0 - 54 - 508
(2:58-18.0- 36-337

2' - 1:56 - 29.0 - 58 - 514
(3:00-18.0- 36-332

2' - 1:56 - 29.5 - 59 - 515
(3:02-18.5-36-329

2' - 1:56 - 29.0 - 58 - 515
(3:09-18.5-36-317
{end of first set}
2:22.5 average pace for the 20 minutes

5' timed paddle as part of timer- programmed workout
2:45 pace-19.0-93-908m

2nd set
2' - 1:57 - 29.5 - 59 - 509
(3:00-20.0-39-333

2' - 1:57 - 30.0 - 59 - 509
(3:10-18.5-36-316

2' -1:57 -29.0 -58 - 509
(3:06-18.5-36-322

2' -1:58 - 29.0 - 58 - 507
(3:03-20.5-40-327

2' - 1:58 - 30.5 - 60 - 506
(3:38-16.5-33-274

5' cool down @ 3:40 pace & 14.0 spm - 679m

did drills the 4k back to the dock in a head wind
4000m - 25:25.6 -3:10.6 pace - 321 strokes

total workout distance = 15066 meters
Last edited by mikvan52 on Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mike van Beuren 57, 73 kg/183cm
2009 US Masters Nationals Champ single sculler (55-59)
http://rowskills.com/testimonials.html

AND

by mikvan52 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:36 pm


1-2k warm up

SpeedCoach programmed 5 x 2' on / 2' off times 2 w/5' break between sets

I had set several goals:
the "on" should be no slower than 2:02 pace and rowed relaxed
the "off" should be no slower than 2:30 pace and should incorporate the form of sculling under pressure.

I note the intervals as "w" for work and "r" for rest:

#1w 2:01 @ 24.0 494m - 48 strokes
#1r 2:22 @ 19.0 422m - 38
.
#2w 2:01 @ 23.5 495m - 47
#2r 2:21 @ 19.5 424m - 39
.
#3w 2:00 @ 24.0 498m - 48
#3r 2:23 @ 20.0 418m - 40
.
#4w 1:59 @ 25.0 502 - 50
#4r 2:20 @ 20.0 428 - 40
.
#5w 1:59 @ 24.0 501 - 47
#5r 2:18 @ 20.5 433 - 41
.
5' rest w/some rowing = 463 meters
.
#6w 1:59 @ 24.5 502 - 50
#6r 2:19 @ 20.5 429 - 41
.
#7w 1:57 @ 28.0 510 - 56
#7r 2:21 @ 22.5 423 - 45
.
#8w 1:57 @ 28.0 513 - 56
#8r 2:23 @ 21.5 419 - 43
.
#9w 1:55 @ 28.5 518 - 57
#9r 2:23 @ 21.5 - 43
.
#10w 1:55 @ 27.5 518 - 55
#10r 2:20 @ 21.5 426 - 43

after the 5' rest I paddled home (approx. 9k)


What do you think?
Are these too easy to do to justify the thought that I am improving my chances for a great HOCR in October.
It's July now.. It's not time to sharpen
Try the workouts on the water, Rich, before coming up with comments about how it's to be done on an erg.

And you know I go longer too.. not at AT these days so I won't wear my aging body down before the head racing season even begins!

Do you have any data to share?

[ranger]

At 12.5 SPI, 1:34/6:16 for 2K, is only 35 spm.



Target in sight.

Target in sight.

Lock on.

Lock on.

Fire.

Fire.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Rich:
Read this page:
http://rowskills.com/master.html

Especially the part where Buzz says: "Competitive Masters Sculls certainly train hard enough... (etc.)

He's speaking to both of us.

Get a coach, Rich, before it's too late. The erg is a ticket for erg success not water success.

[ranger]

2(5 x 2'on/2' off))

No.

That's 2K training (AN).

Not 5K training (AT).

Your intervals should not be 2'.

Your intervals should be 10'.

On the erg, in 2003, I liked 5K, 4K, 3K, 2K, 1K, 500m.

Have you tried that?

Around 15K in all.

In the fall of 2003, I started each session with a 17:30/1:45 5K.

Have you tried that?

I worked up to 9K @ 1:45.

ranger

[hjs]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh we are back in the fall again


just like 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004,



Can someone give me the outcomes of those years.