Ranger's training thread

[ranger]

... and:

Did you answer why the Sydney Gold Medal French 2- won with lower spi?

No.

Yep.

It's irrelevant to the discussion.

Everyone in the video rows well already.

That has no relation to veteran erging.

No veteran erger has ever rowed well.

ranger

[Brunsie]

I have a feeling your early success was probably you overpowering people that had a more effective and efficient stroke than you since you were such a beginner at that time.

Nope.

The opposite.

I just used my physical capacity.

I rowed like hell.

And as it turns out, the 50s lwt WR has been lowered by those who rowed better.

6:16 at 60, though, rowing well (13 SPI) at low drag (120 df.) would be a different matter.

Even with a minimal .5 seconds over 2K decline with age per year, that would imply something like 6:11 for me, if I had rowed well at 50.

If this is the scenario, the difference between rowing well and rowing poorly is right around 4 seconds per 500m, sixteen seconds, over 2K.

That has always seemed just about right to me, as I have mentioned on this forum zillions of times.

ranger

Uh, I am pretty sure if you "just used your physical capacity" you did in fact overpower the competition, please explain how that is the opposite. There are two scenarios, one you have the more efficient and effective stroke and one you don't.

You have chosen to ignore the vast majority of what I have addressed this morning, I think they are valid questions, are they just too uncomfortable to answer?

[ranger]

So by your assertion Mike can increase his power 50% from where he is now simply by adjusting his technique. For that matter I guess you are saying that every veteran rower, now and for all of rowing history has had such poor technique that the same would be true of them. I would be fascinated to see the science behind this

Science?

Rowing is an art.

It involves doing these 21 things simultaneously.

Easier said than done!

(1) Get good length. Get all the way to shins vertical at the catch. The front of your seat should be only six inches from front stops when you fire off with your legs.

(2) Keep your hips/back forward at a good angle when you fire off with your legs. Hold that angle until your legs are done. At this point, the handle should be over your feet.

(3) Get your weight securely up on the balls of your feet at the catch, driving with your quads. Do _not_ take the catch with your heels and hams.

(4) Relax your shoulders at the catch.

(5) Relax your core at the catch.

(6) After about .1 seconds set your heels and stand up on the footplate, flattening your legs out with your hams. As in (2), at this point, the handle should be over your feet.

(7) Open your hips and swing your back with your core.

(8) While you are swinging your back, roll back up onto the balls of your feet and drive down on the footplate with the front of your foot using your calves.

(9) Keep your shoulders relaxed even though you have engaged your core, back, and calves.

(10) Pull through with your arms into your chest.

(11) Keep your elbows level as you pull the handle into your chest.

(12) Get a substantial lean with your back at the finish.

(13) Keep in good contact with the footplate at the finish. Point your toes and push the footplate away from you by digging in with your toes.

(14) Recover your arms as quickly as they finish.

(15) When you recover your arms, sit up tall and push the handle down toward your knees.

(16) Keep your knees flat on the rail until the handle sweeps past them.

(17) Recover your back as quick and fully as you did when you engaged it in the drive, returning to shins vertical (Prep Position). As in (2) and (6), at this point the handle should be over your feet, legs flat on the rail.

(18) The movements from (1) to (16) should be _very_ fast, 3/8 of the stroke cycle, at the most. If you count "And-ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR" as you do the stroke cycle as a whole, execute the movements from (1) to (16) in the first three pulses of this counting/beating: "And-ONE-and."

(19) Set you heels firmly when as you get into prep position.

(20) Break your knees and move the seat slowly toward the catch.

(21) As you do this, roll your weight slowly from your heels to the balls of your feet.

ranger

[Brunsie]

I missed all those records he set after he perfected his stroke

Haven't tried yet.

I am just beginning my race preparation.

Race preparation goes from the top down, from a FM to 500m.

My first result will be a FM @ 1:48.

That will predict all of my other targets--including a 6:16 2K.

ranger

But you claimed you already posted the proof in all the records you set. You do realize we are asking for proof that your new "technique" is all you claim it is. No one is disputing the fact you were once a world class erg'er we knew that already and don't need proof of that. You stated you already posted the proof so please let us know where it is posted. If you have not posted it then you lied about posting it.

[ranger]

You do realize we are asking for proof that your new "technique" is all you claim it is

Meaning what?

I am happy to show you my new technique, and sure enough, it is all that I say it is.

But that's probably not what you mean.

You probably mean that you want to see a 6:16 2K--or at least, a predictor of a 6:16 2K.

Sure.

But that is something that involves some training, no?

I am doing that now.

My first 2K predictor will be a FM @ 1:48.

That will predict all the other 2K predictors, and my 2K goal, a 6:16 2K.

Then, I suppose, we can lay this discussion to rest.

Again, though, in essence, you are demanding to see the _effect_ of the training, which has nothing to do with how that effect was produced, and therefore has nothing to do with training.

Doing a 2K precictor doesn't make you a better/good rower.

You do a good 2K predictor if you are _already_ a good rower.

The question for training is: How did you get so good?

In this case, there is no more explanation necessary.

I have documented, in minute detail, how I got better, here--in 11,000 posts.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Brunsie:
Warning:
ranger is a case of a gifted athlete who thinks that because he once held a obscure record in an obscure sport that he can speak volumes about all kinds of subjects.

Don't believe me? Try to decipher his explanation of what power is in rowing....

watts/strokes per minute


Or this one:
Anaerobic threshold is defined in each person case by a specific whole number of that athlete's heart beats per minute being a defined percentage of that individual's max heart rate...

We have fun with him here... but it's a waste of time. He doesn't show up at major race venues anymore. Lastly, he is not a lightweight. Except by his definition:
"A lightweight is someone who if he starves and dehydrates is capable of making weight long enough for at least one weigh-in a year."

[Brunsie]

You may be able to do the same, may do better, may do worse but until you show us no one will know.

Nope.

As I have just mentioned several times, preliminary results have been coming up all along the line.

Sure, you can wait for final results before you recognize an effective training method, but that doesn't have anything to do with training.

Once you have a final result, your training is over, and probably has been over for some time.

You can't get a desired result unless you train for it.

But if you wait to decide what to do until you have a final result, you will never do anything, because you had no idea how to train for it and therefore will never have a final result.

ranger

But if we followed you blindly for the 10 years and it turned out you were wrong you would have severely injured our ability to improve our rowing. That is why we ask for intermittent proof.

Do you even remotely understand that. I told you a month or so ago I was really rooting for you. I was holding off trying to learn proper technique to see the proof of what you say is true to avoid learning wrong then starting over learning your technique once you proved the world wrong. You claim you provide proof yet I know of not one person on the face of this earth that agrees with you what "proof" is. It would be so incredibly easy for you to provide what the rest of the world considers proof and yet you choose not to. To me that speaks volumes, the proof either verify s what you say or contradicts it, one of the outcomes is the wrong one for you so it appears you would rather avoid it.

[Brunsie]

So by your assertion Mike can increase his power 50% from where he is now simply by adjusting his technique. For that matter I guess you are saying that every veteran rower, now and for all of rowing history has had such poor technique that the same would be true of them. I would be fascinated to see the science behind this

Science?

Rowing is an art.

It involves doing these 21 things simultaneously.

Easier said than done!

OK then please explain the "art" to me. I really want to know how it works that adjusting the technique is going to make the power output go up by 50%. You do realize how huge a number that is for people who are already at the top of the rowing world. If you claimed 5% that would be one thing but you are claiming a 50% increase for the people that are already the best in the world. It may be true, I just want to understand the "art" or the "science" whatever the case may be that is behind it.

(1) Get good length. Get all the way to shins vertical at the catch. The front of your seat should be only six inches from front stops when you fire off with your legs.

(2) Keep your hips/back forward at a good angle when you fire off with your legs. Hold that angle until your legs are done. At this point, the handle should be over your feet.

(3) Get your weight securely up on the balls of your feet at the catch, driving with your quads. Do _not_ take the catch with your heels and hams.

(4) Relax your shoulders at the catch.

(5) Relax your core at the catch.

(6) After about .1 seconds set your heels and stand up on the footplate, flattening your legs out with your hams. As in (2), at this point, the handle should be over your feet.

(7) Open your hips and swing your back with your core.

(8) While you are swinging your back, roll back up onto the balls of your feet and drive down on the footplate with the front of your foot using your calves.

(9) Keep your shoulders relaxed even though you have engaged your core, back, and calves.

(10) Pull through with your arms into your chest.

(11) Keep your elbows level as you pull the handle into your chest.

(12) Get a substantial lean with your back at the finish.

(13) Keep in good contact with the footplate at the finish. Point your toes and push the footplate away from you by digging in with your toes.

(14) Recover your arms as quickly as they finish.

(15) When you recover your arms, sit up tall and push the handle down toward your knees.

(16) Keep your knees flat on the rail until the handle sweeps past them.

(17) Recover your back as quick and fully as you did when you engaged it in the drive, returning to shins vertical (Prep Position). As in (2) and (6), at this point the handle should be over your feet, legs flat on the rail.

(18) The movements from (1) to (16) should be _very_ fast, 3/8 of the stroke cycle, at the most. If you count "And-ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR" as you do the stroke cycle as a whole, execute the movements from (1) to (16) in the first three pulses of this counting/beating: "And-ONE-and."

(19) Set you heels firmly when as you get into prep position.

(20) Break your knees and move the seat slowly toward the catch.

(21) As you do this, roll your weight slowly from your heels to the balls of your feet.

ranger

[ranger]

But if we followed you blindly for the 10 years and it turned out you were wrong you would have severely injured our ability to improve our rowing.

Not really, because, following the major training plans for rowing that are currently available, veteran rowers just get worse and worse--precipitously.

So they already "severely injure [your] ability to improve [your] rowing."

In fact, these plans say nothing at all about improving your rowing.

As was mentioned, they just assume that you will get better at rowing, if you just keep rowing badly (but pull harder).

The major plans for rowing are not about technique at all.

They all focus on fitness and race preparation, even though all veterans have declining fitness, and if a veteran has alreadyu prepared to race once, he/she already knows how to prepare to race again.

ranger

[mikvan52]

I am happy to show you my new technique, and sure enough, it is all that I say it is.

But .... (snip)t

But... he won't

There are over 64 youtubes posted by this cretin.
His form has not changed from the same slide-rushing, bobble-headed nonsense he started with years ago when he was the fastest guy in his C2 age group.
Granted, some things aren't a prominent but he still opens with his back too early and does that funky mantis pantomime with his left arm...
Let's not ignore his signature neck snap!

All this he maintains will translate into great boat speed eventually because:
"The best ergers are the best rowers"

[jliddil]

The 21 Commandments.

So by your assertion Mike can increase his power 50% from where he is now simply by adjusting his technique. For that matter I guess you are saying that every veteran rower, now and for all of rowing history has had such poor technique that the same would be true of them. I would be fascinated to see the science behind this

Science?

Rowing is an art.

It involves doing these 21 things simultaneously.

Easier said than done!

[ranger]

Here's the training plan in full:

If you want to row, rather than just get fit using rowing, I would suggest this regimen as a training plan.

(A) Never use rowing just to improve your fitness. If you do, you'll never reach your potential as a rower. Sure, you'll get fit, but end up rowing badly. Rowing badly vs. rowing well is worth 10 seconds per 500 across all of the distances, a _gigantic_ margin that is large enough to convert anyone from one of the worst rowers to one of the best. If you aren't fit (e.g., because you are old, or because you have been a couch potato for a decade or two, or because you are young and have never had any experience with doing something that taxes your skeletal-motor and physiological capacities, etc.), get fit in other ways. Run, skip, bike, step, swim--a lot--a couple hours a day. Work easily at first, but long, and then work up to exerting yourself to the limit of your endurance, aerobic capacity, skeletal-motor abilities, etc. in as many ways as possible using your entire body. The most efficient way to do this, probably, is just hard, totally exhausting physical labor--chopping down trees, digging holes, carrying rocks, hiking mountains with a 50-lb. pack, etc.

(B) Always use rowing to improve your rowing. Make a checklist of the major things you must do in the stroke cycle to row well for your weight (13 SPI for lightweights, 16 SPI for heavyweights). These might be included in your list.

(1) Get good length. Get all the way to shins vertical at the catch. The front of your seat should be only six inches from front stops when you fire off with your legs.

(2) Keep your hips/back forward at a good angle when you fire off with your legs. Hold that angle until your legs are done. At this point, the handle should be over your feet.

(3) Get your weight securely up on the balls of your feet at the catch, driving with your quads. Do _not_ take the catch with your heels and hams.

(4) Relax your shoulders at the catch.

(5) Relax your core at the catch.

(6) After about .1 seconds set your heels and stand up on the footplate, flattening your legs out with your hams. As in (2), at this point, the handle should be over your feet.

(7) Open your hips and swing your back with your core.

(8) While you are swinging your back, roll back up onto the balls of your feet and drive down on the footplate with the front of your foot using your calves.

(9) Keep your shoulders relaxed even though you have engaged your core, back, and calves.

(10) Pull through with your arms into your chest.

(11) Keep your elbows level as you pull the handle into your chest.

(12) Get a substantial lean with your back at the finish.

(13) Keep in good contact with the footplate at the finish. Point your toes and push the footplate away from you by digging in with your toes.

(14) Recover your arms as quickly as they finish.

(15) When you recover your arms, sit up tall and push the handle down toward your knees.

(16) Keep your knees flat on the rail until the handle sweeps past them.

(17) Recover your back as quick and fully as you did when you engaged it in the drive, returning to shins vertical (Prep Position). As in (2) and (6), at this point the handle should be over your feet, legs flat on the rail.

(18) The movements from (1) to (16) should be _very_ fast, 3/8 of the stroke cycle, at the most. If you count "And-ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR" as you do the stroke cycle as a whole, execute the movements from (1) to (16) in the first three pulses of this counting/beating: "And-ONE-and."

(19) Set you heels firmly when as you get into prep position.

(20) Break your knees and move the seat slowly toward the catch.

(21) As you do this, roll your weight slowly from your heels to the balls of your feet.

If technique in rowing is worth about 10 seconds per 500m, then as an approximation, each of these 20 technical points, I think, miight be worth a couple of seconds over 2K (.5 seconds per 500m).

All twenty of these technical points, taken together and mastered completely, are worth forty seconds over 2K (10 seconds per 500m).

When you get on the erg, your task in training is to master these things.

Each time you row, work on one of these twenty things, or some subset of these twenty things, that you know you do poorly, until you have mastered them all.

Put in 20K a session.

If you are fit, master all of these technical aspects of rowing, and are a big lightweight (e.g., 6', 165 lbs., right at the weight limit), you should pull a nice 1:43 @ 25 spm (13 SPI), just naturally.

If you are fit, master all of these technical aspects of rowing, and are a big heavyweight (e.g., 6'5", 220 lbs.), you should pull a nice 1:36 @ 25 spm (16 SPI), just naturally.

You are now one of the best rowers in the world.

ranger

[mikvan52]

veteran rowers just get worse and worse

meaning (translation) "slower and slower"

Next he'll assure us that the sun sets in the west.. Thanks for such scintillating facts, RIch!

ranger moves a flywheel on a cog of a stationary rowing device.
He knows little about rowing.

"Hold your elbows level"
The elbow is a point. How in the world do you hold a point "level" with a plane such as the floor in an erg room?
His "mantis arm" elbow is level! (at BIRC)

ranger: please give up. Get a coach who can help you back to being number one. If you don't Rocket Roy will have a field day with you at WIRC next February.

[ranger]

Mike VB is a typical case in point.

Four years ago Mike pulled a 6:45 2K OTErg.

From here on out, Mike will have a hard time pulling 7:00.

Mike's 2K times OTErg are declining--precipitously--even though he is taking the very best advice available in order to try to get better.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Rich:
Why can't you answer a simple question: Why do the French win the 2- in the video I posted for you to analyse for us?
Their spi "stroking power" is lower. Their form is not the best either.. They got the Gold...
Why?

Or is this thread just for the subjects you wish to discuss?
You would have us believe that all things erg translate into the best things to do on the water. But you are unwilling to defend you theories.

Here's another ranger misconception:

I'm sorry but I do not "5) Relax (my) core at the catch." I would collapse.

I find it hard to believe that you are doing a service by reposting moronic stuff over and over again.