Ranger's training thread

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: Oh what a tangled web we weave

Post by ranger » July 10th, 2011, 2:28 am

PaulH wrote:Any defense, or do you concede the point?
Sure, over the last several years, I have been a position where I _could_ have sharpened and would have improved my 2K _enormously_ if I _had_ sharpened, but as I have already explained, I never got it done.

My new technique wasn't up to it.

You can't sharpen effectively if you are still futzing with your technique.

Let me venture this:

When done well, rowing is so repetitive and unconscious that it takes a half million strokes or so to get fully used to even a small change in technique.

Six months?

If you try to change your technique _entirely_, not just one dimension of it, but let's say, a couple dozen dimensions of it, the whole affair is quite an undertaking, especially if the changes are to be achieved gradually, one by one, as they have been for me, and perhaps must be for anyone.

Over the last eight years, I have changed, in pretty radical ways, almost every conceivable dimension of my stroke--drag, timing, sequencing, footwork, posture, length, rhythmicity, etc.

This has increased my peak force by 50%, shortened my drive time by 30%, increased my overall stroking power by 30%, etc.

My hope is that this improved technique will get me three seconds per 500m over 2K, despite my inevitable decline with age over the several years it has taken to make these technical improvements.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

KevJGK
2k Poster
Posts: 480
Joined: June 9th, 2009, 3:26 pm
Location: Bristol, UK

Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by KevJGK » July 10th, 2011, 3:14 am

Bob S. wrote:
KevJGK wrote:
So he simply missed out an 'e'.
That's why your response was a bit harsh - for just a typical typo.

Bob S.
My response was aimed at Kini.

Keep up Bob. :lol:
Kevin
Age: 57 - Weight: 187 lbs - Height: 5'10"
500m 01:33.5 Jun 2010 - 2K 06:59.5 Nov 2009 - 5K 19:08.4 Jan 2011

macroth
5k Poster
Posts: 514
Joined: February 4th, 2008, 5:14 pm
Location: Geneva, CH

Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by macroth » July 10th, 2011, 3:44 am

What's this about "gluts" being a typical typo or just missing out an e???? Ranger has been typing "gluts" since the beginning of this thread. It's not a typo, it's crass ignorance from someone who acts like he knows his glutes from a hole in the ground about fitness and the human body.

Kini's response was spot-on anyhow, regardless of why it was posted.
43/m/183cm/HW
All time PBs: 100m 14.0 | 500m 1:18.1 | 1k 2:55.7 | 2k 6:15.4 | 5k 16:59.3 | 6k 20:46.5 | 10k 35:46.0
40+ PBs: 100m 14.7 | 500m 1:20.5 | 1k 2:59.6 | 2k 6:21.9 | 5k 17:29.6 | HM 1:19:33.1| FM 2:51:58.5 | 100k 7:35:09 | 24h 250,706m

User avatar
Byron Drachman
10k Poster
Posts: 1124
Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 9:26 pm

Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by Byron Drachman » July 10th, 2011, 4:48 am

One of the attractions of this thread is our hero's steady stream of malapropisms.

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 10th, 2011, 4:54 am

Yea.

I've _really_ got my technique together now, all of it, although the grooves are not very deep yet.

In every session, it still takes me a while to find all of the technical sweet spots and relax with them, hitting them consistently, automatically, unconsciously, etc.

Catch-PUSH-PRY-Finish.

Nothing to be done but more of the same.

Feels great, once I get it going.

Some easy FMs might be in order now, perhaps starting at my pb, 1:54, and then moving down a couple of seconds per 500m on each subsequent trial until I hit my target: 1:52, 1:50, 1:48.

A FM @ 1:48 would be a dozen seconds per 500m, 16 _minutes_, faster than any 60s lwt has ever pulled 42K.

It would break the 60s _heavyweight_ FM WR by half that, six seconds per 500m, 8 _minutes_.

Another 20K OTErg, just before dawn, this morning.

Back out OTW as soon as the sun comes up.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 10th, 2011, 5:10 am

Luckily, there is a good, reliable way to verify whether your technique is in order or not.

Effectiveness.

If you are a (big) lightweight and pull 13 SPI--naturally, automatically, unconsciously--you've got it.

If you are a (big) heavyweight and pull 16 SPI, you've got it.

Otherwise, not.

How much you fall short of these standards for stroking power (SPI) indicates how many dimensions of a proper rowing stroke you are missing.

There are at least a couple of dozen things that you can get, or not.

Historically, all veterans have missed something.

Most have missed a lot.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

bellboy
2k Poster
Posts: 306
Joined: September 29th, 2009, 11:38 am
Location: Coventry,England

Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by bellboy » July 10th, 2011, 7:08 am

ranger wrote:
mikvan52 wrote:WIll he face Rocket next February?
Sorry, but the burden of the question is the other way around.

I have been rowing continuously for a decade now, both OTErg and OTW.

During those years, I have had the best 2K time in the 50s/55s lwts for five of those ten years, with sub-6:30 rows as a heavyweight in two other years.

I rarely miss a day of rowing, either OTErg or OTW, or both.

I am a rower.

It's Rocket who isn't primarily a rower.

He's a biker.

For the last three years, he hasn't been rowing much at all.

He has been biking.

He has never rowed OTW.

Heck, I am not even sure he is interested in rowing for itself.

If he were, he'd have been rowing OTW--long ago.

It would be easy for Roy to join a club, buy a boat, learn to row, etc.

I bought a boat eight years ago.

But Roy doesn't seem interested.

So the question this year, like the question last year, and the year before, and the year before, is whether Roy will be racing this winter, not whether I will.

Has Roy sent in his entry for the Head of the Charles?

If not, he'd better hurry.

The deadline is quickly approaching.

ranger

So the point is conceded then. Despite Roy being a biker he is currently (the last five years) better than you on the erg. He doesnt spend half of the time you do on this wonderful piece of stationary exercise equipement but has held the "soft" world record for FIVE years now! Out of the two of you i would bet my house that Roy will be at Boston and you will be stuck in a snowdrift somewhere. Just imagine if you were drawn next to him? We would be able to smell your fear all the way across the Atlantic!

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 10th, 2011, 7:39 am

bellboy wrote:So the point is conceded then. Despite Roy being a biker he is currently (the last five years) better than you on the erg. He doesnt spend half of the time you do on this wonderful piece of stationary exercise equipement but has held the "soft" world record for FIVE years now! Out of the two of you i would bet my house that Roy will be at Boston and you will be stuck in a snowdrift somewhere. Just imagine if you were drawn next to him? We would be able to smell your fear all the way across the Atlantic!
Ten years ago, when we were both rowing poorly, I was about ten seconds better than Roy over 2K.

When I do a 2K this year, rowing well (13 SPI) at low drag (120 df.), fully prepared, I will be about thirty seconds better than Roy over 2K.

In rowing, technique is tricky, but if you can master it, it makes a significant difference.

You can't become a skillful rower by doing a lot of biking.

Unless you know what you are doing, the erg also encourages bad (i.e., ineffective, inefficient) technique.

So, to develop a good rowing stroke, it helps to learn to row OTW.

Roy pulls 2Ks at 9.5 SPI.

Rowing well for a lightweight is 13 SPI.

So, Roy is missing 37% of what goes into doing a good stroke.

Lots to work on!

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 10th, 2011, 7:54 am

bellboy wrote:you will be stuck in a snowdrift somewhere
Hey.

What can I say?

I can't control the weather.

No matter, anyway.

Erging doesn't have anything to do with head-to-head competition.

Racing on the erg is just a race against the clock.

You just hold the pace you have trained yourself to hold and that's it.

You can't do much better than your training has prepared you to do.

And if you are fully prepared to race, you can't do much worse, either.

On an erg, you can race anywhere, anytime.

The question is how fast you are, not who you beat or not.

At race venues, I have a dozen or so 2Ks under Roy's 6:38.

I have half a dozen 2Ks 6:30 or under, the most recent one without even preparing for it.

My goal for this year is to get a similar collection of 2Ks under 6:20, at some point, pushing down to the limit of my potential, 6:16.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

User avatar
mikvan52
Half Marathon Poster
Posts: 2648
Joined: March 9th, 2007, 3:49 pm
Location: Vermont

Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by mikvan52 » July 10th, 2011, 8:51 am

ranger wrote:
Racing on the erg is just a race against the clock.
spoken just like the coward you are.
you are afraid to face Roy as every time you do you will lose.

racing is about facing competitors ... something you are unwilling to do.
time trialing may be done alone....
What are the IND_V results of your best time trialing in the last year? Still "learning to erg" as a 6o year old? :lol:
2k = ?
5k = ?
FM = ?

Isn't the only result you have in the last 12 months a 7:02.3 2k ?
Have you been unwell for that long? If so I hope you recover by WIRC 2012... :roll:

Head of the Charles entry in as yet?
"Rich Danger ~ secret sculler"

User avatar
mikvan52
Half Marathon Poster
Posts: 2648
Joined: March 9th, 2007, 3:49 pm
Location: Vermont

Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by mikvan52 » July 10th, 2011, 8:53 am

ranger sayeth ... " a decade OTW"... and still hasn't completed any event...

Roy doesn't even have to go on the water at all to equal that mark, Rich... :lol: :lol:

aharmer
6k Poster
Posts: 627
Joined: December 2nd, 2009, 11:23 am

Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by aharmer » July 10th, 2011, 10:41 am

Let's see...Roy doesn't row OTW and you're calling him out over his HOC entry. You row OTW, and have made several claims that you'll win HOC easily. When asked about your registration you post enough gibberish to bury the request. Neither of you will be at HOC, which one is the coward?

Time to start FM trials huh? Okay, why will we not have seen one two months from now?

30 seconds better than Roy at WIRC huh? Why will you not be at WIRC as Roy stands on the podium with another guy we know?

Roy could equal your OTW record in 5 seconds, just run off the end of the dock with a stupid assed hat on and enjoy a swim :x :lol:

Bob S.
Marathon Poster
Posts: 5142
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 12:00 pm

Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by Bob S. » July 10th, 2011, 10:44 am

KevJGK wrote: My response was aimed at Kini.

Keep up Bob. :lol:
Whoops! That was careless of me. I'll just have to blame it on having a "pumphead moment."

Bob S.

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 10th, 2011, 12:18 pm

mikvan52 wrote:racing is about facing competitors
Naw.

Erg races are won in training.

If I train myself to pull 6:16 for 2K, it doesn't matter what 60s rowers I compete against--heavyweight or lightweight.

No one else can do anything close to 6:16.

Heck, when I am fully prepared to race and then race, I don't pay attention to what others are doing anyway.

I just row the pace that my training has prepared me to hold.

You can't do any better than that.

And if you are well prepared, you can't do any worse.

What others row is up to them, not me.

The last time I was fully prepared to race, I did this:

6:36, 6:33, 6:30, 6:32, 6:29, 6:28, 6:32

I rowed the 6:29 (a WR at the time) alone, in the center of the erg room at the Detroit Boat House.

I rowed the 6:30, 6:28, and 6:32 at WIRC, BIRC, and EIRC.

Competition had no effect on my times whatsoever.

Interestingly, I heard recently that this was the way the great, late Johnny Wooden coached his basketball teams.

In practices, including his preparation for games, he never mentioned the opposition.

He just told his players to play their best, and if that wasn't good enough, the other team was better and therefore deserved to win.

The issue in competition is taking care of your own business, doing your best, not out-doing someone else.

You can't do better than your best.

For Wooden, that was good enough for his teams to win 10 NCAA championships in 12 years, and at one point, 88 games in a row.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 10th, 2011, 12:36 pm

aharmer wrote:You row OTW, and have made several claims that you'll win HOC easily.
Nonsense.

I never made any such claim.

No one wins the Head of the Charles easily.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

Locked