The Two Types of Training
While Paul Smith's 10 MPS program might indeed be a way of getting used to high rates (efficiency), and at the same time working on stroking power (effectiveness), with the emphasis on efficiency, which in the end is more important and harder to learn, if you first learn to row effectively, as I think you should, it now seems to me that you can be quite a bit more purist in your work on efficiency than a regimen based on 10 MPS entails.
If you are a little lightweight like me, just row at 32 spm for everything, as I did when I first took up rowing, using your effectiveness, your stroking power, to vary the effort, as the distance varies.
If you get maximally efficient at doing this, you should be able to row a FM @ 32 spm, as I did when I first took up rowing, by just lightening up 4 SPI; a HM, by lightening up 3 SPI; a 10K, by lightening up 2 SPI; and a 5K, by lightening up 1 SPI. Then, when you race a 2K, draw on all of your effectiveness and row well, for a lightweight, at 13 SPI.
So the task in distance rowing for a lightweight, the task in learning how to be maximally efficient, if you remain purist about it, and keep it in a proper training sequence _after_ you learn to be effective (13 SPI), is this:
FM 9 SPI @ 32 spm (1:46)
HM 10 SPI @ 32 spm (1:43)
10K 11 SPI @ 32 spm (1:40)
5K 12 SPI @ 32 spm (1:37)
2K 13 SPI @ 32 spm (1:34)
This is what I will now try to do in my distance rowing.
These distances and times are right on my targets and follow the well-known formula for the best lightweights of "double to d, add 3."
I suspect that this is what people like Rod Freed did in their training, but because they never did their proper work on effectiveness first, their achievement, while massively impressive for longer distances, never translated to the 2K.
That is, I suspect that Freed rowed a HM at 32 spm and 9 SPI; a 10K at 32 spm and 10 SPI; and a 5K at 32 spm and 11 SPI.
But he had no way to row 2K at 32 spm and 12 SPI, much less 13 SPI.
He didn't have the stroking power.
BTW, one of the best ways of training yourself to do this purist work on efficiency, is just to have 32 spm playing in your head all day long, with muscle memory adding the kinaesthetic imagery associated with the rowing stroke.
This takes no effort at all, because you are only thinking/imagining, rather than rowing, but the timing, sequencing, leveraging, motion, rhythmicity, etc., in this thinking/imaging are all there, and the more you do it, the more automatic/unconscious the performance gets.
Then when you are actually rowing, the mental discipline you need is all in place.
All you need to do is just add various amounts of effectiveness (9 SPI at the bottom of the range, 13 SPI at the top of the range), like so many eggs added to the batter, and the cake appears, in whatever shape and flavor you would like for the moment.
One of the very odd consequences of this kind of training, I think, is this:
Those who grew up paddling a canoe, as I did for the first 20 years of my life, have a lifetime of experience about how to be maximally efficient when rowing.
It is not at all an accident, I think, that Paul Flack could row a great marathon, without even working at it very hard.
Paul was a national team C2 paddler for a decade.
At the moment, Jamie Pfeiffer also seems to do this sort of rowing: high rate, long distance, light stroke (e.g., 60min @ 30 spm and 1:48 pace, 9 SPI.
To be maximally efficient in rowing, paddle.
And off you will go--effortlessly, like the wind.
ranger
P.S. Could you imagine NavHaz training like this?
But there's the problem.
Nav _doesn't_ train like this because he is massively inefficient, and doesn't care. In his training, to try to get better, he just parades his strengths and avoids his weaknesses. He works of effectiveness in everything he does, and just lets efficiency slide. As a result, as he ages, he just gets worse and worse.
If you are a little lightweight like me, just row at 32 spm for everything, as I did when I first took up rowing, using your effectiveness, your stroking power, to vary the effort, as the distance varies.
If you get maximally efficient at doing this, you should be able to row a FM @ 32 spm, as I did when I first took up rowing, by just lightening up 4 SPI; a HM, by lightening up 3 SPI; a 10K, by lightening up 2 SPI; and a 5K, by lightening up 1 SPI. Then, when you race a 2K, draw on all of your effectiveness and row well, for a lightweight, at 13 SPI.
So the task in distance rowing for a lightweight, the task in learning how to be maximally efficient, if you remain purist about it, and keep it in a proper training sequence _after_ you learn to be effective (13 SPI), is this:
FM 9 SPI @ 32 spm (1:46)
HM 10 SPI @ 32 spm (1:43)
10K 11 SPI @ 32 spm (1:40)
5K 12 SPI @ 32 spm (1:37)
2K 13 SPI @ 32 spm (1:34)
This is what I will now try to do in my distance rowing.
These distances and times are right on my targets and follow the well-known formula for the best lightweights of "double to d, add 3."
I suspect that this is what people like Rod Freed did in their training, but because they never did their proper work on effectiveness first, their achievement, while massively impressive for longer distances, never translated to the 2K.
That is, I suspect that Freed rowed a HM at 32 spm and 9 SPI; a 10K at 32 spm and 10 SPI; and a 5K at 32 spm and 11 SPI.
But he had no way to row 2K at 32 spm and 12 SPI, much less 13 SPI.
He didn't have the stroking power.
BTW, one of the best ways of training yourself to do this purist work on efficiency, is just to have 32 spm playing in your head all day long, with muscle memory adding the kinaesthetic imagery associated with the rowing stroke.
This takes no effort at all, because you are only thinking/imagining, rather than rowing, but the timing, sequencing, leveraging, motion, rhythmicity, etc., in this thinking/imaging are all there, and the more you do it, the more automatic/unconscious the performance gets.
Then when you are actually rowing, the mental discipline you need is all in place.
All you need to do is just add various amounts of effectiveness (9 SPI at the bottom of the range, 13 SPI at the top of the range), like so many eggs added to the batter, and the cake appears, in whatever shape and flavor you would like for the moment.
One of the very odd consequences of this kind of training, I think, is this:
Those who grew up paddling a canoe, as I did for the first 20 years of my life, have a lifetime of experience about how to be maximally efficient when rowing.
It is not at all an accident, I think, that Paul Flack could row a great marathon, without even working at it very hard.
Paul was a national team C2 paddler for a decade.
At the moment, Jamie Pfeiffer also seems to do this sort of rowing: high rate, long distance, light stroke (e.g., 60min @ 30 spm and 1:48 pace, 9 SPI.
To be maximally efficient in rowing, paddle.
And off you will go--effortlessly, like the wind.
ranger
P.S. Could you imagine NavHaz training like this?
But there's the problem.
Nav _doesn't_ train like this because he is massively inefficient, and doesn't care. In his training, to try to get better, he just parades his strengths and avoids his weaknesses. He works of effectiveness in everything he does, and just lets efficiency slide. As a result, as he ages, he just gets worse and worse.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
Mike Caviston never learned how to row efficiently.
He never learned how to paddle.
His whole training regimen is skewed toward effectiveness.
He rowed his long level 3 rows at 24 spm rather than 32 spm.
He muscled them.
To prepare himself for this, he spent 75% of his time muscling his training, working on effectiveness at low rates, while only devoting a session, here and there, to efficiency.
The rows that Mike was always concerned with were things like 60'r20 and the like.
But if he followed a balanced training program that included substantial work on efficiency, he would have been more interested in 60'r32, that is, a 60min trial, done with maximal efficiency, not a bunch of inefficient, muscle-beach trudging, fobbed off as rowing.
ranger
He never learned how to paddle.
His whole training regimen is skewed toward effectiveness.
He rowed his long level 3 rows at 24 spm rather than 32 spm.
He muscled them.
To prepare himself for this, he spent 75% of his time muscling his training, working on effectiveness at low rates, while only devoting a session, here and there, to efficiency.
The rows that Mike was always concerned with were things like 60'r20 and the like.
But if he followed a balanced training program that included substantial work on efficiency, he would have been more interested in 60'r32, that is, a 60min trial, done with maximal efficiency, not a bunch of inefficient, muscle-beach trudging, fobbed off as rowing.
ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
Well here's what motivates my naysaying:ranger wrote:I am not sure what motivates the nay-saying chatter here
It's the thought that any innocent newcomer to the Forum could actually think you could get within even a *quarter* of those distances at those paces. To state 'targets' like that implies you are not too far away from them when in fact you can't currently hold 1:40 for 2k, nevermind 10k..ranger wrote:FM 9 SPI @ 32 spm (1:46)
HM 10 SPI @ 32 spm (1:43)
10K 11 SPI @ 32 spm (1:40)
5K 12 SPI @ 32 spm (1:37)
2K 13 SPI @ 32 spm (1:34)
This is what I will now try to do in my distance rowing.
These distances and times are right on my targets
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The wheel has indeed turned full circle. Hidden in this statement is the abandonment of 'rowing well'.ranger wrote:If you are a little lightweight like me, just row at 32 spm for everything, as I did when I first took up rowing, using your effectiveness, your stroking power, to vary the effort, as the distance varies.
And look what follows:
So distance rowing is now to be done at 9 SPI, "lily dipping".ranger wrote:by just lightening up 4 SPI
ranger needs a horse, "Hiyo Silver!"
Wow.
Hugely stable stroke, 1:34 @ 34 spm.
12.5 SPI
There's my racing stroke.
Now, all I have to do is force my heart rate up to the max, practice for a few weeks with it at max, riding it out, riding it out, and that's it.
My training is complete.
I can't imagine that I won't be there by the end of April.
All my other rowing, I can do, 32 spm @ 1:40 (11 SPI).
Together, the two are dynamite.
They only differ two spm is rate, 1.5 SPI in power, 6 seconds per 500m in pace.
I am now sharpening hard.
ranger
Hugely stable stroke, 1:34 @ 34 spm.
12.5 SPI
There's my racing stroke.
Now, all I have to do is force my heart rate up to the max, practice for a few weeks with it at max, riding it out, riding it out, and that's it.
My training is complete.
I can't imagine that I won't be there by the end of April.
All my other rowing, I can do, 32 spm @ 1:40 (11 SPI).
Together, the two are dynamite.
They only differ two spm is rate, 1.5 SPI in power, 6 seconds per 500m in pace.
I am now sharpening hard.
ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
Re: The Two Types of Training
My sharpening has really rounded into shape.
I have reduced my training rates and paces to a collection of three, all over 30 spm and WR 2K pace for a 55s/60s lwt, which can now serve for all purposes.
AT: 1:38 @ 32 spm (11.7 SPI), for 4 x 2K, 5K, 6K, etc.
TR: 1:34 @ 34 spm (12.5 SPI), for 4 x 1K, 20 x 500m, 2K, etc.
AN: 1:30 @ 36 spm (13.3 SPI), for 8 x 500m, 1K, 1' on, 1' off, 250s, etc.
Delighted with these developments.
I have the rate up.
No more low rate rowing.
BTW, an AT of 1:38 seems to be about the best an older, club-level, and/or American lightweight has ever worked with.
The C2 websites here list Dan Staite's 30s lwt 16:18 5K as the 5K WR for all the age groups, even faster than the Open WR, although it seems evident that the great Danish lightweights must be able to do quite a bit better than that, perhaps as much as three seconds per 500m better, in time, 30 seconds.
15:50?
1:35?
5K is done at AT.
ranger
I have reduced my training rates and paces to a collection of three, all over 30 spm and WR 2K pace for a 55s/60s lwt, which can now serve for all purposes.
AT: 1:38 @ 32 spm (11.7 SPI), for 4 x 2K, 5K, 6K, etc.
TR: 1:34 @ 34 spm (12.5 SPI), for 4 x 1K, 20 x 500m, 2K, etc.
AN: 1:30 @ 36 spm (13.3 SPI), for 8 x 500m, 1K, 1' on, 1' off, 250s, etc.
Delighted with these developments.
I have the rate up.
No more low rate rowing.
BTW, an AT of 1:38 seems to be about the best an older, club-level, and/or American lightweight has ever worked with.
The C2 websites here list Dan Staite's 30s lwt 16:18 5K as the 5K WR for all the age groups, even faster than the Open WR, although it seems evident that the great Danish lightweights must be able to do quite a bit better than that, perhaps as much as three seconds per 500m better, in time, 30 seconds.
15:50?
1:35?
5K is done at AT.
ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
Re: The Two Types of Training
On the erg, elite Open and Masters American and British lightweights have lagged about 10 seconds behind the Danish and Italian lightweights.
The American and British Open lightweight 2K records are 6:07 (by Steve Warner and Tim Male).
The American Masters lwt 2K record (by Greg Ruckman) is 6:16.
The British Masters lwt 2K record (by Tom Kay) is 6:13.
ranger
The American and British Open lightweight 2K records are 6:07 (by Steve Warner and Tim Male).
The American Masters lwt 2K record (by Greg Ruckman) is 6:16.
The British Masters lwt 2K record (by Tom Kay) is 6:13.
ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
Re:
Yep.KevJGK wrote:Are you refering to the current 40-49 lwt world record holder?ranger wrote:Mike Caviston never learned how to row efficiently.
He was just massively effective.
Someone who is efficient, while being just as effective, will beat his 2K times.
ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
Re:
No, I am not abandoning rowing well.snowleopard wrote:The wheel has indeed turned full circle. Hidden in this statement is the abandonment of 'rowing well'.ranger wrote:If you are a little lightweight like me, just row at 32 spm for everything, as I did when I first took up rowing, using your effectiveness, your stroking power, to vary the effort, as the distance varies.
And look what follows:So distance rowing is now to be done at 9 SPI, "lily dipping".ranger wrote:by just lightening up 4 SPI
ranger needs a horse, "Hiyo Silver!"
I will still row 2K at very close to 13 SPI and 32 spm.
But, yes, I think that effectiveness and efficiency need to be separated in training.
For a lightweight, 13 SPI is rowing effectively, regardless of the rate.
For a lightweight, 32 spm is rowing efficiently, regardless of the stroking power.
Put them together and you have a nice 2K target:
13 SPI @ 32 spm, 1:34 pace, 6:16
Effective and Efficient
Rowing well!
6:16 is what Eskild E. rows for 2K, now that he is 37 years old.
6:16 is the Masters/30s American record.
ranger
Last edited by ranger on March 4th, 2010, 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
Re: The Two Types of Training
Hence the reason your AT is somewhere in the region of 1:44-1:45 pace. At best..ranger wrote:5K is done at AT.
Re: The Two Types of Training
We'll see.lancs wrote:Hence the reason your AT is somewhere in the region of 1:44-1:45 pace. At best..ranger wrote:5K is done at AT.
I am waiting for that sub-6:30 AT 2K first.
Then I will launch into some hard AT training, including bouts of 4 x 2K and distance trials.
Of course, I will have to train myself up to it, but I think my AT pace is now 1:38.
HR 175 bpm
ranger
Last edited by ranger on March 4th, 2010, 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
Re: The Two Types of Training
BTW, I now just stand on the scales at 165 lbs.
I am a walking around lightweight.
This is as light as I have been since my freshman year in college, 40 years ago.
ranger
I am a walking around lightweight.
This is as light as I have been since my freshman year in college, 40 years ago.
ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
Re: The Two Types of Training
I'm sure Godot will show up much sooner.ranger wrote:
I am waiting for that sub-6:30 AT 2K first.
43/m/183cm/HW
All time PBs: 100m 14.0 | 500m 1:18.1 | 1k 2:55.7 | 2k 6:15.4 | 5k 16:59.3 | 6k 20:46.5 | 10k 35:46.0
40+ PBs: 100m 14.7 | 500m 1:20.5 | 1k 2:59.6 | 2k 6:21.9 | 5k 17:29.6 | HM 1:19:33.1| FM 2:51:58.5 | 100k 7:35:09 | 24h 250,706m
All time PBs: 100m 14.0 | 500m 1:18.1 | 1k 2:55.7 | 2k 6:15.4 | 5k 16:59.3 | 6k 20:46.5 | 10k 35:46.0
40+ PBs: 100m 14.7 | 500m 1:20.5 | 1k 2:59.6 | 2k 6:21.9 | 5k 17:29.6 | HM 1:19:33.1| FM 2:51:58.5 | 100k 7:35:09 | 24h 250,706m
Re: The Two Types of Training
I think you've just clarified the issue of the AT then: waiting for a "sub-6:30 AT 2K"? 2k?!?!?ranger wrote:We'll see.
I am waiting for that sub-6:30 AT 2K first.
Is that not telling you something?