Galeere, probably best to start with Marston's pacing recs and leave yourself some sea room. The 2k-3 is a good fit with my progress to date on the speed intervals but I penciled in best 5k time as original target when I first tried PP last November.
Jim's warning about volume should be taken seriously, particularly by old geezers like me. I bailed or aborted 1 session into the sixth week last December. I couldn't handle six days on, one off. Going into wk 6 on the current effort, 4 sessions per week omitting two of the LSD pieces is pretty comfortable from the recovery angle. Jack
Pete Plan Summer 2015 starts June 14
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jackarabit
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Re: Pete Plan Summer 2015 starts June 14
There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
M_77_5'-7"_156lb
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hjs
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Re: Pete Plan Summer 2015 starts June 14
Its a matter of intensity mostly. The 8x 500 on 1 rest is very close to current 2k max. Your 2k pb is far away from your current 2k max. The point of 3.30 rest is being able to do the 500 s fast, if that rest is to long you simply do go fast enough.Galeere wrote:I reckon that rest length is somewhat an individual thing. Some people lose many BPMs/rest minute, others not so many. And some people are ready to go again with a 80%-MHR, others would like to go down to 70%.
Contemplating the different opinions (3:30min vs. 2:1) I will probably go for a compromise and will do the 8x 500 with a 2:00 min rest as I think that my HR recovers fairly fast.
Now the Initial speed suggestions also differ a lot. As per the Pete plan it should be the 5k-average wich would be around 1:53 in my case. According to what Jack wrote it should be 2K time minus 2-3 seconds which would lead to around 1:47. That is a big difference. Again I will probably try the middle and shoot for 1:50 on the 8x500.
I hope that makes sense.
But its fine to start out slower, but 1.53 will be very easy for you.
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Balkan boy
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Re: Pete Plan Summer 2015 starts June 14
Today:
Hard Distance: 5km @ 2:01/500m.
The aim was for a leisurely 2:00/500m, but I overestimated my stamina and burned out in the first 1km.
Hard Distance: 5km @ 2:01/500m.
The aim was for a leisurely 2:00/500m, but I overestimated my stamina and burned out in the first 1km.
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gregsmith01748
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Re: Pete Plan Summer 2015 starts June 14
Hi,
I've used the Pete Plan off and on for a few years and I thought I would chime in with a few thoughts and suggestions.
1. The core of the plan is really the three "hard" sessions per week. If you read Pete's website, he says that he basically took these from the Wolverine plan (http://www.concept2.com/files/pdf/us/tr ... nePlan.pdf) so, you might want to read about them from there because there is a lot of useful info about pacing, rests and strategy for the sessions. To put it into WP lingo, the short intervals are "L1" sessions, the Long Intervals are "L2" sessions, and the hard distance is roughly the "L3" sessions.
2. A note about rest, I agree with Henry, that if you think 3:30 is too long, then you might want to push the pace harder in the intervals. But, the most important lesson that I learned is that you should pick a specific rest for each session and then stick with it over time. The whole key to the Pete Plan is progressive improvement from cycle to cycle, so keeping the sessions the same is important so you can judge if you are making progress or not.
3. I have not seen it here, but I think the concept that Pete explains about Negative splitting is really important to succeeding with the plan. When you pick a target split for an interval session, pick a pace you are pretty certain you can do and stick with it through all but the last 1 or two intervals. Then push those last one or two as hard you possibly can and try to get a faster split for them. This has two benefits. First, it helps keep something in the tank to finish the session strong and we all like that. Second, it gives you a good way to establish a target for the next time you do that session. You just take the average of all the intervals and use that as your flat pace for all but the last couple, and then try to negative split again.
4. Rate of improvement. If you are just starting on the Pete Plan, you will see rapid improvement, especially on the short intervals. Enjoy it while it lasts. After 6 or so cycles, the rate of improvement slows down and you enter a challenging phase. Since the plan is progressive, and the rate of improvement is decreasing, it is easy to push too hard and either start blowing up sessions or injure yourself. This was an issue for me when I was erging 12 months a year, but now that I go back and forth between the erg in the winter and my boat the rest of the time, I get enough training changes so it hasn't been a big deal. I guess the message might be to plan to do some cross training after 3 to 4 months of the Pete Plan so that you don't plateau.
5. Steady State. Pete invented his plan because he didn't like rowing at low rates. I've done both the WP and the Pete Plan, and ended up with a compromise. I do the PP core sessions and then use HR or lactate to manage steady state training. My opinion is that you can do whatever the hell you like for steady state training, as long as it fits the general criteria of "less intense". For some folks, that will be a higher rate, higher pace 30 minutes. For others (like me) low rate pieces 60-80 minutes (with hydration breaks). There is a lot of good research about what works and what doesn't, but everyone comes to the table with a different background and different training needs, and preferences. I think the most important thing about these sessions is to do something that you like doing and fits your lifestyle, while not going so hard that it impacts your performance on the core sessions.
6. After he published the plan, Pete suggested that if he were to do it again, he would probably include 750m intervals in the short interval sessions. I like that idea. 750s are brutal and effective and probably a better training session than the Pyramid. 6 x 750/3:30 rest.
Have fun. I'll be back on the Pete Plan in November after the rivers start to freeze.
I've used the Pete Plan off and on for a few years and I thought I would chime in with a few thoughts and suggestions.
1. The core of the plan is really the three "hard" sessions per week. If you read Pete's website, he says that he basically took these from the Wolverine plan (http://www.concept2.com/files/pdf/us/tr ... nePlan.pdf) so, you might want to read about them from there because there is a lot of useful info about pacing, rests and strategy for the sessions. To put it into WP lingo, the short intervals are "L1" sessions, the Long Intervals are "L2" sessions, and the hard distance is roughly the "L3" sessions.
2. A note about rest, I agree with Henry, that if you think 3:30 is too long, then you might want to push the pace harder in the intervals. But, the most important lesson that I learned is that you should pick a specific rest for each session and then stick with it over time. The whole key to the Pete Plan is progressive improvement from cycle to cycle, so keeping the sessions the same is important so you can judge if you are making progress or not.
3. I have not seen it here, but I think the concept that Pete explains about Negative splitting is really important to succeeding with the plan. When you pick a target split for an interval session, pick a pace you are pretty certain you can do and stick with it through all but the last 1 or two intervals. Then push those last one or two as hard you possibly can and try to get a faster split for them. This has two benefits. First, it helps keep something in the tank to finish the session strong and we all like that. Second, it gives you a good way to establish a target for the next time you do that session. You just take the average of all the intervals and use that as your flat pace for all but the last couple, and then try to negative split again.
4. Rate of improvement. If you are just starting on the Pete Plan, you will see rapid improvement, especially on the short intervals. Enjoy it while it lasts. After 6 or so cycles, the rate of improvement slows down and you enter a challenging phase. Since the plan is progressive, and the rate of improvement is decreasing, it is easy to push too hard and either start blowing up sessions or injure yourself. This was an issue for me when I was erging 12 months a year, but now that I go back and forth between the erg in the winter and my boat the rest of the time, I get enough training changes so it hasn't been a big deal. I guess the message might be to plan to do some cross training after 3 to 4 months of the Pete Plan so that you don't plateau.
5. Steady State. Pete invented his plan because he didn't like rowing at low rates. I've done both the WP and the Pete Plan, and ended up with a compromise. I do the PP core sessions and then use HR or lactate to manage steady state training. My opinion is that you can do whatever the hell you like for steady state training, as long as it fits the general criteria of "less intense". For some folks, that will be a higher rate, higher pace 30 minutes. For others (like me) low rate pieces 60-80 minutes (with hydration breaks). There is a lot of good research about what works and what doesn't, but everyone comes to the table with a different background and different training needs, and preferences. I think the most important thing about these sessions is to do something that you like doing and fits your lifestyle, while not going so hard that it impacts your performance on the core sessions.
6. After he published the plan, Pete suggested that if he were to do it again, he would probably include 750m intervals in the short interval sessions. I like that idea. 750s are brutal and effective and probably a better training session than the Pyramid. 6 x 750/3:30 rest.
Have fun. I'll be back on the Pete Plan in November after the rivers start to freeze.
Greg
Age: 55 H: 182cm W: 90Kg
Age: 55 H: 182cm W: 90Kg
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G-dub
- Half Marathon Poster
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Re: Pete Plan Summer 2015 starts June 14
Thanks for the input Greg! One thing I've been pondering is if the 8 X 500 workout makes sense for me vs doing, like you say, 750 or more. I am enamored with Seillor's "Understanding Intervals" article and he says that intervals should be more than 2 minutes to get cardio stress and adaptation. He also is more inclined toward AT level and longer intervals. In my case, its the 'time at AT' and/or 'pace at AT" that seems to be most limiting for me (see 5K, 30 m, and 10K time!) and this also makes me question whether doing the 500's makes sense except or to sharpen prior to test. Having said the above, I cant call it the Pete Plan unless I actually do it!
Glenn Walters: 5'-8" X 192 lbs. Bday 01/09/1962
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jackarabit
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- Joined: June 14th, 2014, 9:51 am
Re: Pete Plan Summer 2015 starts June 14
Second that sentiment! Thanx for the voice of experience, Greg. Missed your commentary here since you started hanging out mostly on the Free Spirits site. Always enjoyed your blogging there and I still take a look to see the time-in-zone graphs. All takes time!
Have to consider the 750s as .5 replacement or alternative on pyramid day week two. The distance pyramid is one of my favoriites and relatively easy for me mentally so it's probably way to easy for the "young" bucks (under-60s). In my current cycle ending tomorrow, I have managed 5 sessions for two of the three weeks (four on week two; four per week previous cycle). Think I have homed in on medium term program sustainability if I check the habit of letting the one or two free rate LSD sessions rack up time at AT HR. Jack
Have to consider the 750s as .5 replacement or alternative on pyramid day week two. The distance pyramid is one of my favoriites and relatively easy for me mentally so it's probably way to easy for the "young" bucks (under-60s). In my current cycle ending tomorrow, I have managed 5 sessions for two of the three weeks (four on week two; four per week previous cycle). Think I have homed in on medium term program sustainability if I check the habit of letting the one or two free rate LSD sessions rack up time at AT HR. Jack
Last edited by jackarabit on June 12th, 2015, 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
M_77_5'-7"_156lb
M_77_5'-7"_156lb
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gregsmith01748
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- Location: Hopkinton, MA
Re: Pete Plan Summer 2015 starts June 14
Hi again,
Regarding the 500s. I think they play a more important role in the neuro-muscular part of training versus the aerobic or cardiac. If you think about the intent of the Pete Plan training (and the WP too), it is to get oneself prepared to row a 2K faster than you've ever rowed it before. To do that you need to improve your rowing specific strength, your aerobic capacity, your tolerance for lactate, and your efficiency at higher stroke rates.
What the 500s do is give you the chance to row at rates and paces that you eventually will do for your 2K. You get a taste of it on the way down the backside of the pyramid, but since the pieces get shorter, you don't need to stress efficiency. With 8 full reps of 500, you can really work on taking full strokes at higher rates and mess around with how to sequence your recovery at the higher rates. Basically, they help you get better at rowing fast.
If you do them hard enough, you will also get an excellent dose of lactate tolerance training in the last 4.
I would not advocate for the abolishment of the pyramid. I'd be more likely to argue for extending the cycle to four weeks:
8x500, 5x1500, 5K
Pyramid, 4x2K, 6K
4x1K, Waterfall, 30min
6x750, 3x2500, 10K
or something like that.
On the Free Spirits site last winter, we ended up doing a 3 week cycle and tacking on a 4th "Free Form" week where you could pick any short, long and hard session you liked. This was cool because it gave us a chance to substitute a Cross Team Challenge session, or try some new and twisted session that we heard of. It was good to have the common sessions to compare notes and then we could go our own way or copy others during the fourth week.
By the way, I'm posting all my erg and OTW training on a wordpress site. I really liked the tools that they have to make it easy to keep my notes organized and to keep track of what I'm doing. Feel free to drop in an take a look.
https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/
Regarding the 500s. I think they play a more important role in the neuro-muscular part of training versus the aerobic or cardiac. If you think about the intent of the Pete Plan training (and the WP too), it is to get oneself prepared to row a 2K faster than you've ever rowed it before. To do that you need to improve your rowing specific strength, your aerobic capacity, your tolerance for lactate, and your efficiency at higher stroke rates.
What the 500s do is give you the chance to row at rates and paces that you eventually will do for your 2K. You get a taste of it on the way down the backside of the pyramid, but since the pieces get shorter, you don't need to stress efficiency. With 8 full reps of 500, you can really work on taking full strokes at higher rates and mess around with how to sequence your recovery at the higher rates. Basically, they help you get better at rowing fast.
If you do them hard enough, you will also get an excellent dose of lactate tolerance training in the last 4.
I would not advocate for the abolishment of the pyramid. I'd be more likely to argue for extending the cycle to four weeks:
8x500, 5x1500, 5K
Pyramid, 4x2K, 6K
4x1K, Waterfall, 30min
6x750, 3x2500, 10K
or something like that.
On the Free Spirits site last winter, we ended up doing a 3 week cycle and tacking on a 4th "Free Form" week where you could pick any short, long and hard session you liked. This was cool because it gave us a chance to substitute a Cross Team Challenge session, or try some new and twisted session that we heard of. It was good to have the common sessions to compare notes and then we could go our own way or copy others during the fourth week.
By the way, I'm posting all my erg and OTW training on a wordpress site. I really liked the tools that they have to make it easy to keep my notes organized and to keep track of what I'm doing. Feel free to drop in an take a look.
https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/
Greg
Age: 55 H: 182cm W: 90Kg
Age: 55 H: 182cm W: 90Kg
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jackarabit
- Marathon Poster
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- Joined: June 14th, 2014, 9:51 am
Re: Pete Plan Summer 2015 starts June 14
Roger that, and thanx again Greg. I'll make myself an alternative record sheet for the four week variant in case the other masochists want to go that route? Jack
There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
M_77_5'-7"_156lb
M_77_5'-7"_156lb
Re: Pete Plan Summer 2015 starts June 14
Thanks for that input Greg. I like that idea of a free 4th week and ding something alike mentioned above. Especially the 3x2500 look intreaguing. There is just the downside that the cycle gets longer and it takes longer to check on the progress we are making. So what about it, do we go for that? I vote yes.gregsmith01748 wrote: I would not advocate for the abolishment of the pyramid. I'd be more likely to argue for extending the cycle to four weeks:
8x500, 5x1500, 5K
Pyramid, 4x2K, 6K
4x1K, Waterfall, 30min
6x750, 3x2500, 10K
or something like that.
On the Free Spirits site last winter, we ended up doing a 3 week cycle and tacking on a 4th "Free Form" week where you could pick any short, long and hard session you liked. This was cool because it gave us a chance to substitute a Cross Team Challenge session, or try some new and twisted session that we heard of. It was good to have the common sessions to compare notes and then we could go our own way or copy others during the fourth week.
https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/
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G-dub
- Half Marathon Poster
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- Joined: September 27th, 2014, 12:52 pm
- Location: Asheville, NC
Re: Pete Plan Summer 2015 starts June 14
Well the progress will be seen each week in the interval sessions, so no worries there. I'm game too Galeere. Probably makes more sense to go 8 weeks instead of 6 anyway. BTW - I'm starting Saturday this week. Have to mtn bike ride on Sunday.
Glenn Walters: 5'-8" X 192 lbs. Bday 01/09/1962
Re: Pete Plan Summer 2015 starts June 14
Ok, that would be tomorrow. As I took a rest day today anyway I will start tomorrow as well then.G-dub wrote:Well the progress will be seen each week in the interval sessions, so no worries there. I'm game too Galeere. Probably makes more sense to go 8 weeks instead of 6 anyway. BTW - I'm starting Saturday this week. Have to mtn bike ride on Sunday.
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G-dub
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Re: Pete Plan Summer 2015 starts June 14
Party on Garth!
Glenn Walters: 5'-8" X 192 lbs. Bday 01/09/1962
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jackarabit
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Re: Pete Plan Summer 2015 starts June 14
Blank slate. Here we go. Jack
There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
M_77_5'-7"_156lb
M_77_5'-7"_156lb
Re: Pete Plan Summer 2015 starts June 14
Kick off Pete plan, 8x 500, with goal sub 1:50.0, rest 3min, DF 160 (DS 7):
2k w/o and c/d
Time SR HR max HR after 2min rest
1:49.9 28 145 < 100
1:49.8 28 146 <100
1:49.5 28 148 <100
1:49.3 29 148 100
1:49.0 28 152 106
1:48.6 28 152 105
1:47.3 29 155 111
1:38.7 32 161 120
Total: 14:22.1
1.000 m very slow rowing in parts of the rest periods
On the last one I was going 1:33 for the first 250m but had to slow down considerably after that.
2k w/o and c/d
Time SR HR max HR after 2min rest
1:49.9 28 145 < 100
1:49.8 28 146 <100
1:49.5 28 148 <100
1:49.3 29 148 100
1:49.0 28 152 106
1:48.6 28 152 105
1:47.3 29 155 111
1:38.7 32 161 120
Total: 14:22.1
1.000 m very slow rowing in parts of the rest periods
On the last one I was going 1:33 for the first 250m but had to slow down considerably after that.
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G-dub
- Half Marathon Poster
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Re: Pete Plan Summer 2015 starts June 14
Good one Galeere. You could/ should start out a little more aggressively next time given your fast last. I went negative split from 1:47.1 down to 1:40.4 on the last. Averaged 144.6 which is a hair lower than I want but I'm happy to start out the program here. Rest was 3 minutes. SPM averaged 131 - my last was at 137, so most were at 29-30. DF 124.
Glenn Walters: 5'-8" X 192 lbs. Bday 01/09/1962