Any benefits to super low drag factor?

[Citroen]

Please bear with me for a moment…So as I understand it, one's desired drag factor should be a function of:
Rating (if high then df high)
Drive speed (if high then df low)
Power per stroke (if high then df high, the "resistance" factor)
?
If so, what percentage weight assigned to each to determine your target df?

I think you are over analysing it.

One's desired drag factor should be the point where it all feels comfortable and you get the best results for the workout you're attempting.

When we ran 100m and 300m races in Basingstoke there was the tendency for everyone to add 10 (or more) to their regular drag factor to make it hard to spin up the flywheel (from a racing start) but to keep it spinning with less lost angular momentum for the whole race.

[lindsayh]

I think you are over analysing it.
One's desired drag factor should be the point where it all feels comfortable and you get the best results for the workout you're attempting.
When we ran 100m and 300m races in Basingstoke there was the tendency for everyone to add 10 (or more) to their regular drag factor to make it hard to spin up the flywheel (from a racing start) but to keep it spinning with less lost angular momentum for the whole race.

I agree with both points though when racing the 100/300 definitely raising the df helps. Once forgot to adjust on a 300 and did it at df90 instead of 180 and it cost me about 2+ seconds.

[hjs]

I think you are over analysing it.
One's desired drag factor should be the point where it all feels comfortable and you get the best results for the workout you're attempting.
When we ran 100m and 300m races in Basingstoke there was the tendency for everyone to add 10 (or more) to their regular drag factor to make it hard to spin up the flywheel (from a racing start) but to keep it spinning with less lost angular momentum for the whole race.

I agree with both points though when racing the 100/300 definitely raising the df helps. Once forgot to adjust on a 300 and did it at df90 instead of 180 and it cost me about 2+ seconds.

Indeed lindsay, for pure speed on the erg, not just strenght, but speed of movement is also a limiting factor. For a 100 meter rate 60 is not unusual, at this rate the fan slows down hardly, you simply need enough drag to do this. Very quick people, say a top track sprinter, could get away with less drag. A powerlifter, very strong but so fast needs lots of drag.

[Cyclingman1]

Previously:

11/1:
5K: 18:23 @1:50.3 DF/SPM 135/30 W/stroke: 8.7. 5min: (L,1) 1:49.0; (H,2,3) 1:51.1.

11/7:
5K: 18:39 @1:51.9 DF/SPM 100/31 W/stroke: 8.1. 5min: (L,1) 1:51.3; (H,3) 1:52.8.

11/8:
5K: 18:42 @1:52.2 DF/SPM 115/31 W/stroke: 8.0. 5min: (L,4) 1:50.7; (H,1) 1:53.6.

Not really planning on turning this into "What training have you done today," but in the interest of continuity since I started this topic, FWIW:

11/14:
30min: 7895 @1:54.0 DF/SPM 135/28 W/stroke: 8.4. 5min: (L,3,6) 1:52.0; (H,1) 1:58.3.

Obviously, a lot goes into erging besides DF. I've come full circle from 11/1, back to DF 135. The first 5min jumps from 1:49.0 to 1:58.3. I think that is called fatigue. So, decided to go longer and not fight the intensity battle. I finally got a little warmed up. BTW, I never do warmups unless I'm doing fast intervals. I just start in on "Just Row." Today felt like an extra concrete block was tied to the handle. I'm not sure any of this is going anywhere.

Re fatigue: Interestingly, since I retired over a year ago, the thought was that there would be plenty of time to erg and to be well rested likewise. Wrong & wrong. When I "worked," I sat on my butt all day writing software. I rowed in the early evening and usually was not tired. Now, my days are filled with mowing, raking, painting, building projects, walking the dog, kayaking, sculling, etc. And I stay about 2/3 tired. I may have to get a job to get my erg times back to a decent level.

[jamesg]

Today felt like an extra concrete block was tied to the handle. I'm not sure any of this is going anywhere.

Maybe not a description of overtraining, but close. In doubt, try using your lower drag to relax and take it easy. Nothing to lose but your chains. At rate 20 you'll have plenty of time to rest even with a much longer stroke. The objective of rowing is to move boats, not to get tired, which is not needed for training anyway.

[Cyclingman1]

Fatigue, overtraining, aging - it all runs together. It is a constant battle to figure out what works, what adaptations have to be made. I know that in my mid-40s, I never worried about over doing it. Some people might like to think they are old in their mid-40s. Trust me, you're not. I'm sure that those in their 70's can attest to the decline, to the change in training frequency and intensity, as they went through their 60s into the 70's. I'm right in the middle of that. I am an experiment. That partly accounts for this thread.

[Bob S.]

It is a continual decline, but not steady. Sometimes it is unexpectedly steeper than before. As a nonagenarian, I have absolutely no idea what to expect my body to be able to do. The various health measure graphs often stop at 70 - or 80 at the most. I was losing about 3 or 4 sec/2k a year for several years and it suddenly increased to 20 or more after age 86. As it turned out, the cardiologist figured that it was a result of one of my bypasses failing - I assume that this meant that it clogged up. A person just doesn't know if or when things like this are going to happen.

Bob S.

[Cyclingman1]

It is a continual decline, but not steady. Sometimes it is unexpectedly steeper than before.

I didn't mention illnesses and injuries with lasting effects. They are the wild cards. I'm hoping to not have too many more of those kinds of issues.

[Edward4492]

Jim, you are so right about 40 year olds. I started bike racing at age 47 and was training and racing at a hectic pace. I could hang with a hard charging Cat 3 pack. Started to notice a slight fall off in my mid-fifties, at age 58 still hanging on, but definitely a decline. Look at the erg scores. The C2 may be the ultimate, equalized test of human power/ aerobic performance. It's a steady decline ,there's a reason why the WIRC is broken down into five year brackets.Look at my class, 55-59 LWT. Roy Brooks is sitting on the WR with a 6:38. One of my friend's son is a 25 yr old LW, he pulls 6:33 in his garage which would have put him around 6th at CRASH B's last year. Go to any local erg meet and watch the High School seniors. You'll see Sub 6:40's all day long. There seems to be a 5 - 10s drop off in WR's for each age group.

It seems that you can hold the decline to a shallow slope until your 60's. And of course you mentioned injury and illness...the two wild cards.It becomes tenuous as we age. It's why I gave up the crossfit, loved it, it works...too much risk.The body can't recover like it used to. Makes Bob's performance all the more impressive given he's in his 9th decade. The erg seems to be the safest way to get a fantastic time efficient work out with damn near zero risk.

You guys should check out Clarence Bass at cbass.com. He is an amazing specemen, recently turned 75 and has tons of photos documenting his life long experiment in human performance. Has some history on the C2 as well. Pretty amazing guy.

[sharp_rower]

Please bear with me for a moment…So as I understand it, one's desired drag factor should be a function of:
Rating (if high then df high)
Drive speed (if high then df low)
Power per stroke (if high then df high, the "resistance" factor)
?
If so, what percentage weight assigned to each to determine your target df?

I think you are over analysing it.

One's desired drag factor should be the point where it all feels comfortable and you get the best results for the workout you're attempting.

OK, but it's not practical to experiment with different drag factors for different workouts: the possibilities are endless (plus you can't always control for fatigue, energy levels, etc.). I think those three factors will help people narrow down their sweet spot. Are there any other factors that should determine drag factor that people can think of? And again, what approximate weight to assign to each factor?

[Citroen]

I think you are over analysing it.

One's desired drag factor should be the point where it all feels comfortable and you get the best results for the workout you're attempting.

OK, but it's not practical to experiment with different drag factors for different workouts: the possibilities are endless (plus you can't always control for fatigue, energy levels, etc.). I think those three factors will help people narrow down their sweet spot. Are there any other factors that should determine drag factor that people can think of? And again, what approximate weight to assign to each factor?

You're over doing it again. Just slap the drag at somewhere close to where you like it. It only matters when you want to row (or race) on another machine and to give you a clue that the drag isn't changing due to crud and cruft in the cage.

[Oldibtgdy]

I'm not particularly interested in erg scores. I use the erg primarily to work w big muscle sequencing on the water. I find drag factor a useful way to emphasize parts of my stroke that I'm dissatisfied with. For instance, the ambiguity at the front end at a v low drag setting is great for things like developing swing, blade placement/timing, while high settings facilitate getting "up out of the chair" to hang on the handle (oars) like monkey. In fact, several weeks ago, I reduced the span on my boat from 159 to 158 since I wasn't getting as much of my weight on the oar handles as I'd have liked. Moving the arcs a smidge farther into bow increased the initial load a little -- just enough to facilitate a complete hang, but left the load the same for the vast majority of the stroke. Worked like a charm, in other words. Cruising indoors? Drags in the 115-125 range generally work pretty well -- that's somewhere between 4 and 5 on my model c fitted w a cm3/4 monitor (I have one of each).

[sharp_rower]

Just slap the drag at somewhere close to where you like it.

I really disagree with this. I know I previously talked about how a lot of OTW rowers don't care too much about drag factor, but lately I've realized how misguided that attitude is, especially for people whose main focus is the erg. I strongly believe a lot of efficiency can be gained from fine-tuning the drag factor to get it to its optimal spot. I'm not saying a 3-unit difference will have much of an impact, but if you are 5 units or more away from your optimal drag factor (which I agree cannot really be calculated), then you are losing efficiency.

The factors I mentioned (drive speed, spm, and strength per stroke) are helpful I think for people to determine where they should set the drag. Personally I had never considered drive speed as a factor, and knew that spm was a factor, but always thought strength per stroke was the most important one, and so thought the higher the drag factor, the better if you were big and strong enough to carry that load.

Recently I adjusted my drag factor from around 126 to 117, and it has made a 1 or 2-second difference in my 500m splits over 3,000 meters. Whereas those splits felt difficult before the adjustment, after the adjustment I was quite surprised at how much easier they felt. I wouldn't have made the adjustment had I not known about the three factors (are there others?).

[gregsmith01748]

Just slap the drag at somewhere close to where you like it.

I really disagree with this.

I think it all depends on the definition of the word "close". I agree that a difference of 5 or 10 in drag factor can make a difference, especially when you are rowing to a prescribed rate. But I think you can take it too far by making sure it is exactly 131 for all sessions or something.

The main thing to me is to use drag factor instead of just looking at where the damper is since it can vary so much depending on when the erg was last cleaned.

[Citroen]

Just slap the drag at somewhere close to where you like it.

I really disagree with this.

I think it all depends on the definition of the word "close". I agree that a difference of 5 or 10 in drag factor can make a difference, especially when you are rowing to a prescribed rate. But I think you can take it too far by making sure it is exactly 131 for all sessions or something.

The main thing to me is to use drag factor instead of just looking at where the damper is since it can vary so much depending on when the erg was last cleaned.

That's what I was getting at. Folks getting anal and micro adjusting the lever to get 131 is pointless. Having it somewhere between 110 and 120 works for me.