After workout eats/drinks

[ragiarn]

Believe it or not there is a great deal of scientific research which has gone into answering your very question.

Ralph,

Based on what you've read, how much importance do you place on the 4:1 carb:protein ratio and how valuable do you think specially formulated sports drinks are?

Tom

From what I have read the research was done first and the sports drink followed from the the research. I think the important message is not what sports drink to use but rather that one should begin immediately post workout out with a combination of carbs and protein to replenish the used glycogen stores. Better still if you are doing a long workout (more than 1 hr) you should have some form carb in your water. Studies have shown that this will decrease fatigue and forestall the rise in cortisol levels and delay fatigue.

It is during the 2 hr window that the muscles are most receptive to amino acid and glucose and will replenish the glycogen more readily. Whether you use a sports drink or not get the carbs into your system.

A WASTE OF CALORIES
 
BY CHRIS CARMICHAEL (Lance Armstrong's long time coach)

One of the simplest ways an athlete can increase the amount of carbohydrate he can get into his body is to eat a variety of carbohydrate-rich foods.
Research has shown that eating foods that contain more than one kind of sugar helps get more energy to working muscles more quickly. Sugar, like other nutrients, has to be transported from your gut into your bloodstream, and your body uses different mechanisms to transport individual kinds of sugar. When you just eat one kind of sugar, like glucose, you can overwhelm its transport mechanism, which means the energy is essentially “waiting in line” to get into your bloodstream. Eating a combination of sugars is like opening up more doors into a football stadium: more people (sugar calories) stream in faster.

Asker Jeukendrup, a researcher from the University of Birmingham in the United Kingdom, has found that particular combinations of sugar can maximize the amount of carbohydrate energy you can get into your body per minute. One gram per minute was the widely-accepted maximum rate for getting ingested carbohydrate into the body ,but with a 2:1 mixture of glucose (or maltodextrin) and fructose, Jeukendrup’s research has pushed this limit up to about 1.3-1.4 grams per minute. That means that instead of 60 grams of carbohydrate per hour (240 calories), athletes can now deliver 78-84 grams per hour (312-336 calories)

It is important to note that amino acids also stimulate insulin production and Insulin is needed to facilitate amino acids entering the muscles. that is part of the rationale for adding some protein to the carbs. Apparently the research has determined the appropriate ratio to be 4:1 carb to protein.

I would think that the more complete the protein, with regards to amino acid mix the better. Egg whites and milk protein are the most complete protein sources but there are other combinations available. In case you were wondering that evil table sugar is a combination of glucose and fructose in a 1:1 ratio. Starches are all glucose with no fructose. Milk sugar is glucose and galactose in a 1:1 ratio. The sugar found in fruit is sucrose ( the same sugar found in table sugar but packaged in fiber) with a glucose:fructose in a 1:1 ratio. Honey has a higher fructose content than table sugar.

So you can go to your sports supplement store or you can go to your local grocery store or farmer's market.

How much glycogen you need to restore will depend on the intensity and duration of your workout.

Just remember that not all the calories consumed during a workout are derived from glycogen. A large proportion is also derived from free fatty acids. The more fit you are the higher proportion of energy is derived from fat. OOps I think I just opened a topic of contention. Its not all about carbs.

[Jim Barry]

Tom,
Good question. Hard to re-run the experiment of course. I know about hard training effects on my body having been in competitive training build-ups on and off for 10 of the last 20 years and am extrapolating what I think would be happening to me were I not using Cytomax. Hardly the stuff for a sports science study (hence the fun of a forum). I plan to do a lot in August as well and will have Cytomax be a part of it all again, but it would be interesting to see how it goes without it. It would save me $36! Refueling post workout is nothing new to me. I know about the GI scale and have dilegently refueled with high GI foods in the 30 minute post workout window as a regular rule for years. In my search to do this routine better and better I think I've discoved that my normal diet and this product work well together when training very hard. As a busy dad and husband who comes home at dinner time, the ability to plan, prepare and maintain a special training diet is not really workable. I do my best, but it's not optimal.

[johnlvs2run]

I tried the cytomax a few years ago and hated the stuff.

It tasted terrible and I felt worse drinking it so finally tossed it away.

[Bob S.]

A WASTE OF CALORIES
BY CHRIS CARMICHAEL
Research has shown that eating foods that contain more than one kind of sugar helps get more energy to working muscles more quickly. Sugar, like other nutrients, has to be transported from your gut into your bloodstream, and your body uses different mechanisms to transport individual kinds of sugar. When you just eat one kind of sugar, like glucose, you can overwhelm its transport mechanism, which means the energy is essentially “waiting in line” to get into your bloodstream. Eating a combination of sugars is like opening up more doors into a football stadium: more people (sugar calories) stream in faster.

Ralph,

When Carmichael uses the term "different mechanisms to transport" is he referring to the specific enzymes used in the metabolism of each of the different saccharides? If so, there is one particular one that has often been ignored in these discussions and that is the amylase found in saliva. As far as I have been able to determine from net searches, it is the only enzyme in saliva, so it wouldn’t matter when some one is ingesting a sports drink that just has simple sugars (i.e. up to disasccharides), but some smoothies would be likely to have a considerable starch content. In that case, it would be prudent to swish each sip around the mouth a bit to get some saliva mixed in to get the process started before swallowing. It is easy to slip into the not-so-good habit of just gulping down any drink, but for those containing amylose, it would be well to take a little more time.

I was tempted to bring this up on a smoothie thread, but it seems more appropriate here. Smoothies are made from as wide variety of ingredients, so it doesn’t really apply to smoothies in general. What I had in mind was that a lot of them have a banana base and I strongly suspect that bananas have a fairly high amylose content although I haven’t really taken the time to check this out. The usual tables just give the total carbohydrate content without any breakdown to the differing types.

Do you have any comment on this?

Bob S.

[Steelhead]

Tom,
Good question. Hard to re-run the experiment of course. I know about hard training effects on my body having been in competitive training build-ups on and off for 10 of the last 20 years and am extrapolating what I think would be happening to me were I not using Cytomax. Hardly the stuff for a sports science study (hence the fun of a forum). I plan to do a lot in August as well and will have Cytomax be a part of it all again, but it would be interesting to see how it goes without it. It would save me $36! Refueling post workout is nothing new to me. I know about the GI scale and have dilegently refueled with high GI foods in the 30 minute post workout window as a regular rule for years. In my search to do this routine better and better I think I've discoved that my normal diet and this product work well together when training very hard. As a busy dad and husband who comes home at dinner time, the ability to plan, prepare and maintain a special training diet is not really workable. I do my best, but it's not optimal.

I have used Cytomax and it works -- it saved me on Mt. Everest for example. I use it during my workouts; not before or after. It comes in many different flavors, so you have to pick the flavor you like best. I can tell the difference when I use it and when I don't.

My personal preference however is to use whole plant based foods, but of all the sports drinks I have used I prefer Cytomax.

My post workout smoothie is a pumpkin banana smoothie: one can of pumpkin with one large banana and pumpkin pie spices blended in a VitaMix. The pumpkin is the 4:1 ratio, but the banana probably puts it over the top by a bit. I agree that it is a good idea to swish each bite around in your mouth before swallowing -- I eat it with a spoon as it is quite thick. It can be eaten hot or cold -- for it to be cold, it's a good idea to freeze the banana pieces the night before. I typically eat it like a pudding (my VitaMix can heat it up nicely).

[TomR]

Thanx for all the replies.

I'm inclined to think that if I werre to set out on an uncommonly long, arduous session (something short of climbing Everest), then a specially formulated sports drink, like Cytomax, might be useful before Most days, I expect I can rely on good food consumed in a timely manner to prevent a bonk and ensure recovery.

Tom

[Steelhead]

Thanx for all the replies.

I'm inclined to think that if I werre to set out on an uncommonly long, arduous session (something short of climbing Everest), then a specially formulated sports drink, like Cytomax, might be useful before Most days, I expect I can rely on good food consumed in a timely manner to prevent a bonk and ensure recovery.

Tom

I agree completely. I rarely use Cytomax for hour workouts unless I didn't have time to eat that day. Otherwise, I rely on good whole plant based food. After a 90 minute cycling class, tonight, as I type, I'm having a kale, apple, blueberry smoothie. This morning after erging for an hour and then weight lifting, I had my favorite pumpkin banana smoothie. So that's two today.

[ragiarn]

When Carmichael uses the term "different mechanisms to transport" is he referring to the specific enzymes used in the metabolism of each of the different saccharides? If so, there is one particular one that has often been ignored in these discussions and that is the amylase found in saliva. As far as I have been able to determine from net searches, it is the only enzyme in saliva, so it wouldn’t matter when some one is ingesting a sports drink that just has simple sugars (i.e. up to disasccharides), but some smoothies would be likely to have a considerable starch content. In that case, it would be prudent to swish each sip around the mouth a bit to get some saliva mixed in to get the process started before swallowing. It is easy to slip into the not-so-good habit of just gulping down any drink, but for those containing amylose, it would be well to take a little more time.

I was tempted to bring this up on a smoothie thread, but it seems more appropriate here. Smoothies are made from as wide variety of ingredients, so it doesn’t really apply to smoothies in general. What I had in mind was that a lot of them have a banana base and I strongly suspect that bananas have a fairly high amylose content although I haven’t really taken the time to check this out. The usual tables just give the total carbohydrate content without any breakdown to the differing types.

Do you have any comment on this?

Bob S.

An average 8 inch banana has the same amount of sucrose as an average apple +/- 16 grams of sucrose.

With regards to amylase in the saliva, for the most part it plays a very insignificant role in the initiation of digestion once the food hits the stomach.

Amylase is an enzyme which begins the break down of starch. It is most abundantly produced by the prancreas when stimulated by starches in the small intestine.

Very little enzymatic digestion of starches takes place in the stomach. Simple sugars are not digested nor are they absorbed in the stomach.

The stomach acts as a resevoir and a blender. And parcels out the meal in small portions to the small intestine The best analogy I can use is that of a cement mixing truck.

The stomach produces Hydrochloric acid, Pepsin (an enzyme which initiates the breakdown of protein) there is some amylase in the stomach as a result of the saliva (provided that the food was in the mouth long enough to make a difference), and other factors such as Intrinsic factor which is important for B12 absorption.

The only substance that is appreciably absorbed through the stomach wall is alcohol.

The stomach mixes up the meal, adds the ingredients I mentioned above and parcels out the resultant mixture in small spurts into the first portion of the small intestine. The rate at which the stomach empties depends on numerous factors such as fat content, fiber content and protein content- these tend to slow the process down. A high carb low fat meal empties out faster than a High fat low carb meal. A liquid meal empties out the fastest.

In the small intestine the pancreas adds bicarbonate to neutralize the acid produced by the stomach. Proper digeston and absorption requires an alkaline solution. The pancreas also adds amylase to break down the starch and Lipase to break down the Fat.

The liver by way of the gallbladder adds bile to emulsify the fat to make it easier to break down.

The enzymes required for the breakdown of starches and sugars are found in the lining of the small intestine.

Each type of sugar has its own enzyme system which can be overwhelmed by too much of one kind of sugar. A perfect example of this is Lactose intolerance.

Most adults have a relatively decreased amount of lactase (enzyme) and if they drink too much milk not all of is digested and the result is bloating, gas and diarrhea.

Once the sugars are broken down into their simplest forms- galactose (from milk) fructose from fruits vegetables and table sugar, glucose from maltose which is a subunit of starches as well as milk vegetables and table sugar they are absorbed through the intestinal wall and there is a rate limiting step. Too much and the sugars are not absorbed and go on to be taken up by the intestinal bacteria and become gas and cause bloating and diarrhea.

Glucose is also absorbed actively by way of the sodium,potassium, glucose pump. It is absorbed in the upper portion whereas the other sugars absorbed in the middle portion.

The basis for Gatorade and other sports drinks is the proper balance of Sodium, Potassium and Glucose to run the Na,K,glucose pump.

Being in a liquid form the sports drinks require very little work for digestion and are emptied out of the stomach rapidly.

The short answer is the limitation of absorption is at the level of the intestine. Hence the need for frequent feedings and avoidance of large meals.

However there are also rate limiting steps at the level of the liver and the muscles as well.

I hope this answers your question.

[Bob S.]

I hope this answers your question.

Thank you, Ralph. Yes, your message certainly answers my closing question. Quite a bit of it is familiar ground, but I learned a number of new items, so I appreciate your detailed response.

Bob S.