toes

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
ranger
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Post by ranger » April 26th, 2006, 2:17 pm

csabour wrote:I did.

When you stop, the boat stops.

When you climb up to your toes on the footstop it takes too long to get out of the catch. You cannot with the necessary power like that. You will spend way too long sitting at the catch. The weight drops and the boat settles and it rapes your boat run.

Clear enough?
With your 7:01 2K, it sounds as though it is you that has the problem, not those you are scraming at.

I've done 6:28 as a lightweight.

How?

Try using your toes.

:lol: :lol:

BTW, I am 55 years old! You are at the height of your physical powers.

ranger

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csabour
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Post by csabour » April 27th, 2006, 4:42 pm

ranger.

Im not concerned about erging. im concerned about rowing. What i do on the erg is for TRAINING purposes on the water.

There are a whole wack of things which i could do to give myself a fantastic erg score. However those things compromise speed on the water which defeats the purpose of erging in the first place.

Any respectable coach who has actually examined the pros and cons of the foot position at the catch agrees. There is definate evidence and i suggest that you guys try it out before preaching bad habits to real rowers.

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johnlvs2run
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Post by johnlvs2run » April 27th, 2006, 5:44 pm

You can be a "real rower", or you can learn how to row.

Your choice.
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ranger
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Post by ranger » May 16th, 2006, 9:49 am

There are a whole wack of things which i could do to give myself a fantastic erg score.
Really?

What?

What kind of erg score can you pull if you do these things?

ranger

jamie
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Post by jamie » May 16th, 2006, 10:30 am

CS, the book "Row Faster" has a chapter written by Mike Spracklen of US & Canadian Rowing fame, he discusses the importance of using your toes.

http://home.hia.no/~stephens/sprack.htm

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Ducatista
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Post by Ducatista » May 16th, 2006, 2:25 pm

ranger wrote:To strengthen your toes, jump rope--in your bare feet, on your toes, for an hour or so a day.
Now why didn't I think of that?

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Post by B00MER » May 17th, 2006, 12:25 am

A couple of people were talking about this at my boathouse the other day actually and I heard a very good example of why using your toes is good.

The rowing motion is basically you jumping off the footboards as hard and effeciently as you can. The way you jump is just the same as jumping off of solid ground, your just doing it horizontally. One common trainning exercise that I'm sure most of you are familiar with are jumpies. When you try to jump as high as you can what's the last part of your body to leave the ground? The toes. Immagine trying to jump as high as you can while launching off your heels... it doesn't work as well. So that's just what I heard and I think it worked well. :?
-B00MER

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csabour
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Post by csabour » May 17th, 2006, 6:18 pm

okay. now i realize the problem here.

it seems this thread is talking about 2 different things. my interpretation was that whether going up on the toes was good or bad. because i believe is bad OTW but actually helps your erg scores.

now i see that some people are talking about actually pushing with the toes.

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PaulS
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Post by PaulS » May 17th, 2006, 6:44 pm

BOOMER, you need to think about your reasoning a bit more. Perhaps if you were jumping vertically off of a 45deg platform it would be simlar to rowing, NOT jumping off a surface that is perpendicular to the direction you are jumping, as with jumpies.

Anyway this passage is from "Steve Fairbairn on Rowing," pp.
437-438. The last sentence has some bearing on this discussion.
Summary of Body movement

The body movement in slow motions would show something like this: just as the oarsmen is arriving at the full reach forward, the weight comes off the slide and gathers on the stretcher, and the feet push the behind away, and somewhat upward, and so stretch the body, and hang the weight on to the lower part of the back. Really that is putting the whole back into it. Then as the draw couples with the drive, the top part of the body is driven right back with all the weight applied, and the body carries further past the perpendicular than it can with the back held straight. The thought should be: come down on the stretcher and stand on it. Imagine that at the movement of the catch the oar and boat got fixed immovably, and the seat disappeared, and one had to hang there. To do that he would have to keep pushing the behind away. So in rowing one should use the behind as a propelling weight.
The more one thinks of holding the back straight and getting the shoulders over, the heavier one sits on the seat, and the less one uses the legs. Drive your behind to hit the rowing pin and stand on it, and row standing up; do not row for showy form which is rowing sitting down. As regards the use of the feet I have frequently heard a discussion as to whether one used the heels and the ball of the foot, or only the ball of the foot. Think only of coming up on to the stretcher, and springing off it, and our old pal, the Subjective Mind, will do the rest; and as you spring think of pulling, or, shall we say, hauling or heaving at an invisible rope. To get a true heave the heels must be put into the work. I used to get good results from "drive your heels through the stretcher."
The only bit which causes some problems is that when people try to "lift their body" by hanging on the handle, they tend to do that by driving off the toes. And once you lift your body, you limit the horizontal force capacity based on your bodyweight, we really do need to stay on the seat.
Erg on,
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ranger
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Post by ranger » May 18th, 2006, 2:45 pm

I push at the catch and through 3/4 of the drive off the balls of my feet (digging in my toes).

Then I rock back and drive through the foot stretcher with my heels just before I open my back and pull with my arms in the last 1/4 of the drive.

In the drive of my stroke, then, both the balls of the feet and the heels are involved, but at different times.

IMO, like jumping off your heels, driving off your heels at the catch is _enormously_ inefficient. I can do it, but the result is nothing desirable and, IMO, to be avoided.

For short bursts, driving off your heels is indeed powerful. But for extended rowing (such as the 2K!) it has nothing like the efficiency of driving off your toes (and then only stabilizing the finish with your heels).

ranger

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Ducatista
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Post by Ducatista » May 18th, 2006, 4:36 pm

I have only subjective, anecdotal evidence, but my experience tells me I'm faster when I drive with the balls of my feet early in the stroke as ranger describes.

And that method feels much better—more natural, rhythmic, graceful, powerful—than the drive-with-your-heels technique I've tried to maintain ever since I got on the forum a few years back. Funny that I abandoned my toes-first (it's really tempting to call it balls-first) approach so willingly.

I wonder if the TF drive works for me in part because my calf muscles are disproportionately, bordering on freakishly, strong.

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