What is a proper workout?

[hikeplusrow]

A weekly long ride of 3-6 hours

What would be the average power in that, for those who do it once a week?

Using the Coggan power zones, this would typically be an 'endurance' workout performed at 56-75% of FTP (Functional Threshold Power). FTP is a level of effort that can be maintained for one hour.

[jamesg]

The only rowing equivalents are as used in O'Neill's Interactives and in the Wolverine L4 tables: do a 2k test and use percentages of Watts and/or ratings.

Even a single L4 at 18-20-22-20-18 lasting ten minutes can be a proper tough one, if our 2k is fastish but not done at high rates.

[hikeplusrow]

The only rowing equivalents are as used in O'Neill's Interactives and in the Wolverine L4 tables: do a 2k test and use percentages of Watts and/or ratings.

Even a single L4 at 18-20-22-20-18 lasting ten minutes can be a proper tough one, if our 2k is fastish but not done at high rates.

Yes, I use the O'Neill protocol on the erg.

[alex9026]

I would make sure to keep an eye on progress if you do reduce down the distance/time rowed, as that's probably the acid test.

Long term, I favour a higher volume lower intensity approach, save for race day / TT efforts.

whereas I'm the opposite. I feel like the 2 interval/very hard sessions a week in my schedule when I'm training properly are when I make my progress and the others are just there to make up the time in between

I should've added for context, this was from a middle distance running background not the erg, which is new to me. On the erg one can control the variables which is difficult running on the road. If I gravitate to shorter stuff on the erg, I'd be inclined to run a solid block of intervals and cut back on the steady stuff.

[Dangerscouse]

I should've added for context, this was from a middle distance running background not the erg, which is new to me. On the erg one can control the variables which is difficult running on the road. If I gravitate to shorter stuff on the erg, I'd be inclined to run a solid block of intervals and cut back on the steady stuff.

Good point as running is, imo, very different. I never see well trained runners running slowly, it's always at a solid pace. I frequently see well trained rowers rowing slowly, albeit mainly on screenshots.

I wonder if it's an ego issue, as rowing is frequently a solitary exercise at home or at a gym, whereas running is done outside, or at a gym, where more people will be running next to you than a rower will have.

Rowing does also lend itself to slower more controlled sessions by its very nature of the stroke rate, power per stroke etc.

I'd also say that I see quite a variety of what works for different people, and I wonder if sometimes people don't progress as they're following what they've been told / have read, rather than just experimenting for a number of weeks with different paces/ distances/ stroke rates etc

[jcross485]

Good point as running is, imo, very different. I never see well trained runners running slowly, it's always at a solid pace. I frequently see well trained rowers rowing slowly, albeit mainly on screenshots.

I wonder if it's an ego issue, as rowing is frequently a solitary exercise at home or at a gym, whereas running is done outside, or at a gym, where more people will be running next to you than a rower will have.

Rowing does also lend itself to slower more controlled sessions by its very nature of the stroke rate, power per stroke etc.

I'd also say that I see quite a variety of what works for different people, and I wonder if sometimes people don't progress as they're following what they've been told / have read, rather than just experimenting for a number of weeks with different paces/ distances/ stroke rates etc

I hope this doesn't come off wrong, really just want to generate discussion around some of it.

I would agree with the point that running is quite a bit different - more speed endurance because of the "rate" as opposed to power endurance. A 180 cadence in running is quite often regarded as the standard; rowing does vary per person, as does running, but clearly nothing remotely close to that even if it's halved to account for the strike per foot vs. drive with both feet. I do also agree that it tends to be easier to control pace with rowing through stroke rate; you won't see many runners running easy at a low cadence as it messes with mechanics way too much as compared to rowing where you can still row with good strong technique at low stroke rate. Running pace tends to be controlled by other things than cadence.

With not seeing runners running slowly compared to rowers, I'd be interested to know whether or not these runners are posting every training session or just their key sessions which tend to be done a couple of times a week at most. I'm also curious as to whether you're referring to those specializing in distances with more comparable time domains (1500m - 5k) to a 2k rower or those with other time domain focuses like a 200-800m sprinter or HM/FM runner and rower.

[Dangerscouse]

I hope this doesn't come off wrong, really just want to generate discussion around some of it.

I would agree with the point that running is quite a bit different - more speed endurance because of the "rate" as opposed to power endurance. A 180 cadence in running is quite often regarded as the standard; rowing does vary per person, as does running, but clearly nothing remotely close to that even if it's halved to account for the strike per foot vs. drive with both feet. I do also agree that it tends to be easier to control pace with rowing through stroke rate; you won't see many runners running easy at a low cadence as it messes with mechanics way too much as compared to rowing where you can still row with good strong technique at low stroke rate. Running pace tends to be controlled by other things than cadence.

With not seeing runners running slowly compared to rowers, I'd be interested to know whether or not these runners are posting every training session or just their key sessions which tend to be done a couple of times a week at most. I'm also curious as to whether you're referring to those specializing in distances with more comparable time domains (1500m - 5k) to a 2k rower or those with other time domain focuses like a 200-800m sprinter or HM/FM runner and rower.

It doesn't come across wrong at all mate, I know what you intend.

Admittedly I'm only basing running examples on my experience of seeing people running around a local park that we walk to / around regularly, but it's a big, very popular park with a really large pavement so it's always full of runners. The devil could well be in the detail, but I don't recall seeing any well trained person running slowly, albeit 'slow' might be subjective and may look faster to me than it is in reality.

I'm no runner, and I never will be, so I'm far from an educated source of information

[alex9026]

I'm no runner, and I never will be, so I'm far from an educated source of information

Ha, interesting points raised, and as a former sub 17:00 5k but never breaking 16:30, I can relate to "runners not running slow" approach but only because it felt so blimin awkward. I didn't have a "slow" day running, it was all steady (steady being relative), I would just go out and run, purely on feel. Which is probably why I never got to the 16's over 5k or under 35 in the 10k, I didn't allow the volume to accumulate at a slow pace like elite runners do. Off this training I ran a 2:15 over a hilly 20mile.

Comparatively, early days in my training life on the erg, I can row slow and easy and my form feels right, it doesn't feel awkward like trying to run 8:30 mile pace did. I have an ambition to match my running PB's but the realisation of that being nigh on impossible is setting in

[hikeplusrow]

Just an observation. Running fast and running slow are biomechanically different activities. This is not true of cycling and rowing - whether you do them fast or slow, the action required is the same. I wonder if this is a reason why some runners tend to push on in training, and, perhaps subconsciously, avoid the slower work popular with cyclists and rowers.

[Dangerscouse]

Just an observation. Running fast and running slow are biomechanically different activities. This is not true of cycling and rowing - whether you do them fast or slow, the action required is the same. I wonder if this is a reason why some runners tend to push on in training, and, perhaps subconsciously, avoid the slower work popular with cyclists and rowers.

That's what I'm badly alluding to

[alex9026]

Just an observation. Running fast and running slow are biomechanically different activities. This is not true of cycling and rowing - whether you do them fast or slow, the action required is the same. I wonder if this is a reason why some runners tend to push on in training, and, perhaps subconsciously, avoid the slower work popular with cyclists and rowers.

I think that's a very fair observation. There is the cultural, social aspect to long distance and typically slower cycling too. Five+ hours, excluding the coffee stop, isn't unusual on a weekly Sunday morning.

[jcross485]

It doesn't come across wrong at all mate, I know what you intend.

Admittedly I'm only basing running examples on my experience of seeing people running around a local park that we walk to / around regularly, but it's a big, very popular park with a really large pavement so it's always full of runners. The devil could well be in the detail, but I don't recall seeing any well trained person running slowly, albeit 'slow' might be subjective and may look faster to me than it is in reality.

I'm no runner, and I never will be, so I'm far from an educated source of information

Your observations make sense to me for a few reasons.

There are many, many "runners" out there, much more than rowers because of what I would perceive as a lower barrier of entry. The barrier to entry on an erg is not very high but its even lower with respect to running. I would also say that, with there being that many more runners and a low barrier to entry, a lot of people aren't necessarily doing it "correct". Most people will run with a form or technique that feels comfortable or efficient, but most people don't have an aerobic base to make that pace truly easy or Z2, so it ends up being a lot of "grey zone", Z3, or even Z4 effort.

Getting into those that are more trained, and I wouldn't necessarily put myself in that bucket but I did run quite a bit, actual easy running didn't feel comfortable; Z3/4 running felt much more comfortable than lower effort running. It was hard to keep an efficient and clean technique while trying to run a bit slower and keep HR down. The elites of the elites are still running quick quick with decent form/technique even when easy, but they are the exception to the rule (IMO).

With rowing, it's been much easier to keep the stroke and technique dialed in while rowing slower or at a lower HR as rate can be manipulated much easier than cadence can in running. I've never cycled but I would presume it to be similar to rowing than it would be to running.

Ha, interesting points raised, and as a former sub 17:00 5k but never breaking 16:30, I can relate to "runners not running slow" approach but only because it felt so blimin awkward. I didn't have a "slow" day running, it was all steady (steady being relative), I would just go out and run, purely on feel. Which is probably why I never got to the 16's over 5k or under 35 in the 10k, I didn't allow the volume to accumulate at a slow pace like elite runners do. Off this training I ran a 2:15 over a hilly 20mile.

Comparatively, early days in my training life on the erg, I can row slow and easy and my form feels right, it doesn't feel awkward like trying to run 8:30 mile pace did. I have an ambition to match my running PB's but the realisation of that being nigh on impossible is setting in

Your observations and insight are pretty spot on with me. Your numbers in running are faster than what I hit, but it still felt awkward to me running "slow" to keep HR in check as opposed to running "pretty".

Just an observation. Running fast and running slow are biomechanically different activities. This is not true of cycling and rowing - whether you do them fast or slow, the action required is the same. I wonder if this is a reason why some runners tend to push on in training, and, perhaps subconsciously, avoid the slower work popular with cyclists and rowers.

Very well in line with what I was saying. I think its easier with rowing to do the easy stuff easy than it is in running for the vast majority of people.

[hikeplusrow]

Just an observation. Running fast and running slow are biomechanically different activities. This is not true of cycling and rowing - whether you do them fast or slow, the action required is the same. I wonder if this is a reason why some runners tend to push on in training, and, perhaps subconsciously, avoid the slower work popular with cyclists and rowers.

That's what I'm badly alluding to

Happily, there does seem to be a consensus around this

[JaapvanE]

Good point as running is, imo, very different. I never see well trained runners running slowly, it's always at a solid pace. I frequently see well trained rowers rowing slowly, albeit mainly on screenshots.

See https://youtube.com/shorts/j_N56n-LdrA That is at least one.

She used to run marathons, and she transitioned to crossfit and has her own fitness studio.

In fact, the work of Seiler was triggered by an endurance runner: see https://youtu.be/MALsI0mJ09I , 4 minutes in

[Dangerscouse]

That is at least one.

Thanks and as I suspected, it's possibly more about what I perceive as 'slower', as this looks fast to me!

Seeing someone rowing at r18-20 does look really slow to a non-rower, I remember my wife seeing me at the gym once asking why I was rowing so slowly (r20, but I can't remember the pace, but it wouldn't have been over 2:00), as it does look mechanically really slow. Running doesn't seem to be like this, at least in perception