UT2 SS pace question & RPE

[jamesg]

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate your time and interest.

In summary, I suggest that if we learn to pull a good stroke we can train at low ratings without doing very long distances, because the stroke itself contains a lot of work and that's what causes a training effect pertinent to rowing as a sport. A sport needing a nice mix of strength, endurance and style.

I don't care how long I row, and never have, though in better days it was fun to scull the length of our local lake and back (10k), gulls screaming, fish jumping, misty morning sun and water dead flat.

Instead I climbed one flight of stairs this a.m as follows: 3.4m height, 85kg, 17s.
3.4 x 84 x g / 17 = 165W, going quite slow even for me.

Anyone can do this at least, so anyone can do the same on the erg, once it's clear how. Shift bodymass or a flywheel, if we know how, makes no difference. The problem is only that the legs do the work but this has to go through trunk and arms. So we learn how: the upper body in few other ways can find itself thus involved and may object. It's always a surprise: try a scythe for example, one begins to wonder why grass is such hard stuff; like water.

The W/kg numbers (1 2 3W/kg) I suggest as guidelines or targets are based on what I could do at age 60-65 when I started erging: 2k rate 28, 280W, 5k rate 25, 220W after about a million meters (one year). Real weight 86, BMI23 80kg.

The length of training pieces is what can be done without compromising quality. Even a minute done well is useful due to its effects.

Once we start to row effectively, training starts automatically: it's hard. So we don't need plans, we need knowhow, then do it. Rowing is so simple: whop it in, whip it through, whap it out, as my seven man told me just before a final; and how else.

[iain]

I climbed one flight of stairs this a.m as follows: 3.4m height, 85kg, 17s.
3.4 x 84 x g / 17 = 165W, going quite slow even for me.

Anyone can do this at least, so anyone can do the same on the erg, once it's clear how.

I agree that most can manage considerably faster. However most people are really laboring after only 4 or 5 flights, so this is what the vast majority of people can do anaerobically (for a minute or so).

The W/kg numbers (1 2 3W/kg) I suggest as guidelines or targets are based on what I could do at age 60-65 when I started erging: 2k rate 28, 280W, 5k rate 25, 220W after about a million meters (one year). Real weight 86, BMI23 80kg.

I agree that for someone pretty fit your 2W/kg is a reasonable benchmark and useful for identifying where there may be significant power leakage in the stroke. I suggest that many people who are less fit would struggle initially (especially as their muscles when starting rowing are likely to be proportionally weaker in some areas). Yes I suggest the vast majority could row some distance at 2W / kg lean mass, I am not convinced that rowing a minute or so at a time would be optimal to build fitness even 'though it could be used as the start to a program to fitness.

In addition, I suspect many would not know their likely lean mass. When I rowed in 2007-12 I was much leaner than most at 72kg and lost appreciable strength when I dropped below 71kg. I was horrified to find when resuming over covid that I could drop to 68kg with no loss of strength. In 8 years or low activity I had lost at least 3kg of lean mass. How much more for those who have never been fit. As such, even when modified to 2W/kg lean mass while closer to a good general benchmark this is harder to apply in practice. People with BMI 30+ frequentl start rowing to benefit from good exercise with low impact. I suggest that few will have a clue about their "lean" mass. Even experst with calipers would struggle to agree due to internal fat deposits.

[Tobias Stoehr]

Travis Gardner proposes a UT2 which is not RPE 3/10.
More like 6/10.
A 8min 2k for a fit and muscular 24 year old is slow and indicates a technique deficiency. Probably underusing the big prime movers (legs, glutes) and overusing upper body.

[RHAmersfoort]

Hi all, New member here. Same confusion as OP. I like using watts instead of pace, hr or rpe. How would ut2 - on average - relate to 2k power? Ergo, if 2k race is 100%, would ut2 fall in the 50-60% range? Or >70%? Should one be able to hold a conversation or is that not necesary?

Stats:
Male, 37yo, bw 120kg, strong but not fit (enough)
Background in strength sports
Train 3x per week, as kettlebell training supplement (kettlebells also 3 times a week)

2k in 7:36min = 236W
60% would be 142W = 2:15/500m.

Like OP i can row higher watts for around 30-40mins, however this starts to feel intense.

Any thoughts/tips/alternative views would be appreciated.

[contdrift86]

Hi all, New member here. Same confusion as OP. I like using watts instead of pace, hr or rpe. How would ut2 - on average - relate to 2k power? Ergo, if 2k race is 100%, would ut2 fall in the 50-60% range? Or >70%? Should one be able to hold a conversation or is that not necesary?

Stats:
Male, 37yo, bw 120kg, strong but not fit (enough)
Background in strength sports
Train 3x per week, as kettlebell training supplement (kettlebells also 3 times a week)

2k in 7:36min = 236W
60% would be 142W = 2:15/500m.

Like OP i can row higher watts for around 30-40mins, however this starts to feel intense.

Any thoughts/tips/alternative views would be appreciated.

Pretty much, I found an online calculator years ago that gave the following ranges based on 2km watts.

UT2 - 45-60% of 2k
UT1 - 60-70%
AT - 70-80%
TR - 80-105
AN - 105-115

So mine for example:
PR 6:59.5 - 303.4 WATTS

UT2 - 137-182
UT1 - 182-212
AT - 212-243
TR - 243-319
AN - 319-349

Most of my SS is around 155 watts with a HR of around 138-144 (max is 197). I am slowly increasing my SS watts up for 3 per week on average whilst keeping an eye on my HR to be 70-75% of MHR as over years of training I know this is the sweet spot for me to do lots of volume and recover well enough to go HARD twice a week with a longer tempo session on Tuesday and some AN work on a Friday.

My Sunday long rows are done a little lower on the watts, usually around 150ish as this sees me go for longer without too much cardiac drift towards the end of the session.

[Elizabeth]

Hi all, New member here. Same confusion as OP. I like using watts instead of pace, hr or rpe. How would ut2 - on average - relate to 2k power? Ergo, if 2k race is 100%, would ut2 fall in the 50-60% range? Or >70%? Should one be able to hold a conversation or is that not necesary?

Stats:
Male, 37yo, bw 120kg, strong but not fit (enough)
Background in strength sports
Train 3x per week, as kettlebell training supplement (kettlebells also 3 times a week)

2k in 7:36min = 236W
60% would be 142W = 2:15/500m.

Like OP i can row higher watts for around 30-40mins, however this starts to feel intense.

Any thoughts/tips/alternative views would be appreciated.

I train by HR, which lands me at about 48% of 2k watts for easy efforts and 60% of 2k watts for medium efforts (essentially UT1). Anything harder than that, I aim for sustainably hard splits and just ignore HR.

I've been realizing that I should add a disclaimer that my schedule includes 10-11 training sessions per week. The less you train, the less it likely matters.

[RHAmersfoort]

[quote=contdrift86 post_id=573997 time=1696382737

[/quote]

Pretty much, I found an online calculator years ago that gave the following ranges based on 2km watts.

UT2 - 45-60% of 2k
UT1 - 60-70%
AT - 70-80%
TR - 80-105
AN - 105-115

So mine for example:
PR 6:59.5 - 303.4 WATTS

UT2 - 137-182
UT1 - 182-212
AT - 212-243
TR - 243-319
AN - 319-349

Most of my SS is around 155 watts with a HR of around 138-144 (max is 197). I am slowly increasing my SS watts up for 3 per week on average whilst keeping an eye on my HR to be 70-75% of MHR as over years of training I know this is the sweet spot for me to do lots of volume and recover well enough to go HARD twice a week with a longer tempo session on Tuesday and some AN work on a Friday.

My Sunday long rows are done a little lower on the watts, usually around 150ish as this sees me go for longer without too much cardiac drift towards the end of the session.
[/quote]

Thanks! This helps!

[hikeplusrow]

I too use the O'Neil power zones mentioned above. It's important to test at 2k regularly to keep the zones updated - same as the Coggan zones in cycling where you regularly test using the FTP protocol.